Dutch Barge long distance cruisers

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Greenseas2, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. Pierre R
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    Pierre R Senior Member

    Yup, I feel like I am cheating but my wife is not on pins and needles wondering if things will be okay in dicey situations. I will take cheating over a back set captain any day of the week.

    My present boat would not be a candidate for flanking rudders I am sorry to say or I might just try them.
     
  2. ms.dageraad
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    Location: Friesland

    ms.dageraad Peter Engel, Friesland

    hai everyone,

    I read most of your discussion today. I'm a naval architect living in Holland at a barge of 45m. That is 150 ft for the old fashined thinkers. It is built in 1913.
    The reason why a barge is not seaworthy is its construction. It is built as light as possible to be able to carry as much load as possible. My ship is literally breathing when We are sailing in waves of 60 cm-1m. When I would weld it closed at the top it would be much better, but the frames are still very light. Angled irons 65x65x6.5mm. riveted, so the strong side of the frames is at the shell. A new build barge could be easily made stronger.

    I actually designed a working boat for a nature guarding society. there are 2 built. One of 18 m and 1 of 20m.It draws only 70 cm. (2'4") goes 15 km with only 80 ps. It has a scow-like hull. She goes very easily. In very shallow canals only 1 m wider then the boat it sucks less water from the shores then an outboard powered boat of 4,5 m. I did my best to design it, but I was very surprised when she really went trough the water. She makes almost no waves. The builder made a fish-shaped rudder. I didn't agree with it, but he was stubborn. And it is really good. She turns on the spot. Without a bow-thruster. She operates in very restricted waters, so with side-wind you need some sort of bow-rudder. We also added spud-poles. Very nice for manoeuvring and anchoring.
    I sketched some recreational versions of it. It is in AutoCAD. I'm new at this forum, so I don't know how to post a sketch. But I warn you. It's a workboat and the recreational version still looks like one. But its appealing to me.

    Groet,
    Peter
     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I am aboard a 50 ft USN utility boat , that has a different style of"backing rudder".

    In front of the prop is what looks like a megaphone , geared to turn with the rudder. The wide end faces the prop so in backing the flow is accelerated by the taper.

    Don't know a "proper" name for this . but it does work at mostly canceling the prop walking on reverse IF the rudder is put over the right way.

    I guess this was useful in her past life as a utility or crew boat.

    Works fine as a cruiser, although it might cause some drag.

    FF
     
  4. colinstone
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    colinstone Junior Member

    Peter,

    Concur - old barges have very small frames. My new 22m euroships luxemotor has 100x80x6/10mm frames and many bottom frames are 300x80x6/10, all at 500mm spacing. Hull bottom and chines are 10mm plate, 6mm plate elsewhere. Bare steel hull is 39 tonnes. She is really strong and stiff and was great crossing the channel. We make no wash/waves on rivers/canals at speeds up to 6kts - the 30-40ft tupperware cruisers at 5 knots make much more wash.

    Tot zeins,

    Colin
     
  5. Greenseas2
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    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Dutch type barge construction

    Euroship does build a beautiful vessel, but the big problem is that the compond curves preclude such a design being easy to build for the layman or semi-professional shiop builder. The thrust of the thread is to define a Dutch style barge that has long range ecomonical cruise capability and is easily constructed of various materials other than just steel. In part, this is not only to provide folks of modest means to build their own aesthetc crusing homes, but also to solve, in part housing problems near major metropolitan areas where average workers can't afford dwellings. The Dutch style barge has proven itself as an adequate dwelling/cruising vessel throughout Europe and would be readily adaptable to US inland waterways. Too, the widebeam narrowboat designs may be even more adaptable to inland waterways rather than the significantly larger Dutch style barges.

    As a design preference, previously stated plumb bow, plumb sides and semicounter stern would rid the design of compound curves, yet create an easily pushed and stable hull of approximately 45-48 feet long with a beam of 10 or 12 feet. Low power in the 65 to 80 hp range wouuld be sufficient along with with navigation and flanking rudders for maneuverability. Thoughts on reduced electric power budgeting and euipment is valuable to the effort. A rather boxish hull could be enhanced with a shear line created by tapering the bulwarks from a high bow bulwark donward to midships and a rather high tumblehome bulwark from the tapered from the stern forward to midships. (optical illusion). With this construction, the vessel would laso have shallow draft, yet reasonable stability and be able to be built from steel, wood/epoxy strip plank, slab plywood/epoxy or even sheets of 4' x 8' PVC plank that are now being used to build bulkheads on boats rather than an expensive fiberglass lay up. At any rate, with no compouind curves to work with, simple construction can be done by relatively unskilled people and with few tools.
    Thoughts and input?
     
  6. ms.dageraad
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    Location: Friesland

    ms.dageraad Peter Engel, Friesland

    A dutch barge hull could be built in concrete / ferro-cement. The weight will be very usefull. It is cheap, but it will be a lot of work. The hulls of euroship are built in China and delivered in Holland for around 70.000 euro's. Not really cheap, but you have a new ship and that is good when you have to sell it someday.
     
  7. Greenseas2
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    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Mast and sail questions and answers

    While early powered Dutch style Barges were derived from sailing vessels, I would hesitate to put a sail the foreward part of the barge that is operated by neophytes primarily because most crews aren't coordinated enough to handle a larger vessel running in both the power and sailing mode. In doing a lot of single hand crusing sans autopilot, leaving the helm and running all of the way forward to douse a sail when the wind became too strong is out of the question. Too, we are talking about a flat bottom boat built by amateur craftsmen in most cases. (stability factor)

    Putting a foldable mast and working boom forward similar to the ones found on the 22 foot Com-pac Horizon cat boats might be useful in putting a dinghy overboard, mounting a radar or swinging a long gang plank ashore along a canal while still being able to lower it for bridges. (as on Clyde Puffers in the UK) On US waterways, the lowest fixed bridges to be able to navigate under is 12 feet on the Champlain Canal in New York State. Also, it is common practice on commercial towboats to place a small "swing light" that can only be seen from the bridge on the back side of the mast so the skipper can see what the position of the bow is in reduced visibility. While not necessary if you tie up or anchor at night, a swing light is a convenient nav aid. It can't be seen by anyone other than the helmsman. (very low power)
     
  8. colinstone
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    colinstone Junior Member

    Concur EuroShipServices build beautiful ships - I have one, but they are not difficult for an amateur to put together - and indeed many have been built at home in the garden - look at the phots at the ESS site. The plates are all developed surfaces and they have some compound curvature. But the designer has been extremely cunning. The curvature is all within the stretch limits for steel and does not require anything other than a couple of pulling hoists. The curved areas are designed to be welded in a particular sequence and doing so stretches the steel to achieve the compound curvature. On my own hull, hoists, pullers and blocks were used far less than a hull built with flat sides and a bluff bow. For a simple hard chine construction, the ESS hull also has extremely good hull hydrostatics and is very close to an original 1920s luxemotor.

    As for rudders - why not just fit a "kitchen" rudder. One rudder would then do the same as 1 nav and 2 flanking.
    Fast Fred - sounds like a kitchen rudder that is actually behind the prop???
     
  9. Greenseas2
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    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Barge material

    While Euroships may have great DYI kits, they are still expensive to buy and to ship to the US, then also the cost to transport to the building site. Local materials can bought as they are afforded. What we're looking for is a simple hull form for those who just plainly can't afford the cost of a MIG welder, the kit and the shipping and surface transportation costs. Affordability is also why we stepped down from Dutch Style Barge to widebeam narrow boats in the design effort.
     
  10. Pierre R
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    Pierre R Senior Member

  11. Greenseas2
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    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Wooden boat designers

    You are 100% right Pierre, Michael Kasten and a plethora of other designers specialize in wooden boat construction with high results to their work. Wood boats built 70 and 80 years ago are still cruising as well as commercial vessels from 100 years ago, thus supporting the argument for wood as a medium for barge construction.
     
  12. yipster
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    yipster designer

    thanks for the pointer and allthough i dont like wooden shoes, i do think Michael Kasten's "twee schoenen" is a cunning and clever concept
     
  13. Greenseas2
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    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Good point

    I checked out Michael Kastens designs last night and he does have several sizes that would fit the basic description that we're work towards. Some even resemble river barges to a degree and the layouts of the interiors are good also. AQt the very least, some good ideas can be had from his designs.
     
  14. MarkC
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    MarkC Senior Member

    Sea Spark provided this great link - a list and definitions of traditional 'Dutch' sailing/fishing/freighting types:

    http://www.ssrp.nl/schepenlijst.asp

    Thanks for that link - awesome site.
     

  15. bransonboats
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    bransonboats Junior Member

    Why not ask your local plasma profiling company to cut a kit for you? Steel prices roughly the same everywhere (the lowest cost boat building material?).

    Having built steel boats by hand and from kits there is no comparison in speed of building. An important consumable when boat building is enthusiasm. It may get expended quickly along with frustration and slow progress.

    Certainly you have to pay for having a kit cut by C.N.C plasma. But to loft and cut a shapely Dutch Barge by paid labour will cost five times as much.

    I agree the very simple box like hull will be efficient on labour but the material cost will be the same or higher. A builder would save the profiling cost if nothing was charged for his labour. The profiling cost in the UK for a Dutch Barge is a few thousand dollars. Even with a box type hull the hand cutting will be the expensive option.

    The resulting shells will be very different. One built quickly and relatively painlessly, full of curves and sheer, looking very professional, the other possibly boxy?

    The builders of both designs then have to spend the same cost on fitting out.
    Fitting out is the expensive element of a build. The ratio 1/3rd cost of the shell to 2/3rd fitting out is often mentioned. The 'hand built' saving taken over the entire project at best is a few percent.

    When all the work is done, I think the one with the attractive shapely boat will be more satisfied. The saving of a few thousand of dollars will not compensate the other.

    We offer D.X.F cutting files for our designs. Other companies do as well so shop around for a design you like. Take these files to a profiling company and get a price. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. But please use computer cut kits! As a builder I cannot think of a single disadvantage.

    I believe all steel kit suppliers use developable plating. (If you get a straight edge and place it on a curved plate and revolve it through 360 it will touch the plate along its length at some particular angle). As the plate is bent the resistance is caused solely by the stiffness/thickness of the plate. Compound shaping is definitely not required. Compound requires either stretching the steel or heat shrinking around the perimeter. Generally regarded as a highly skilled craftsman’s job.

    If you are interested -but not convinced we can supply D.X.F files for a model kit, a 1-10 scale Dutch barge. This can be assembled using TIG. Although fiddely due to the small size it will go together beautifully!
     
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