Dutch Barge long distance cruisers

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Greenseas2, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,964
    Likes: 187, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    If you still have your vessel in the Chesapeake Bay area this fall I'd love an invite to look aboard her.

    At the moment I'm stranded in an airport in Korea immersed in a typhoon, making my way to visit Thailand for a month :confused:
     
  2. ben2go
    Joined: Jul 2008
    Posts: 183
    Likes: 4, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 13
    Location: Upstate, South Carolina,USA

    ben2go Boat Builder Wanna Be


    Depending on where the crossing takes place,it could easily be over a month with a steady 9 to 12 knot cruise speed.Wind,waves,and currents are powerful forces to overcome at sea.They can push a boat extremely off course in a short period of time.Maybe you should watch a movie titled,"The Perfect Storm".It's based on a true event that happened of the coast of eastern north eastern US.
     
  3. Val567
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 0, Points: 0
    Location: Georgia

    Val567 Junior Member

    In answer to your question, I might actually be able to get you 10M dollars if that's what it took, but it won't, and quite frankly I'm not willing to pay that much. It would defeat the purpose.

    I can get a great loop going, non-ocean going 100% solar 50-70' x 14' houseboat outfitted including electric engines for around $120,000.

    I bet a lot of people are thinking, "HOW?!" Well it involves a lot of out of the box thinking, and not doing things the traditional way. I am a designer, and I am used to bumping into walls that make things not economical. All you have to do is use enough work-arounds to keep it cheap, and stay creative my friends.

    In answer to the other person's comment about what type of engineer I am, I am a biomedical engineer. I make big medical equipment.

    Anyway, reason why I was here was to get an idea on the NEW cost of the project if I wanted to expand it to ocean going, not just great loop. Already given up on the barge idea though. With that in mind: EuroCanal: Cool boat!



    I'd also like to address a question that has come up several times: "So you are traveling with this electric boat and you run out of batteries. Now what? Are you really just going to drop anchor and sit for several days to recharge?"

    Well first of all, when considering the design of a houseboat, since you will be near land at all times, the answer is yes! In all likelihood, you can find some cove or something to duck into, find a place to drop anchor and let your batteries recharge, BUT... the idea is you wont need to do that because you are going to get where you want to be before that happens most of the time, just like a gas / diesel boat.

    Just for the sake of comparison though, let's look at the 2 options:

    Option #1: Regular gas housboat. 16-18 hours of gas while ACTIVELY GOING SOMEWHERE. 240 gallons of fuel. Twin 90-120HP motors. (hope these people are ready to drop $1000 on gas every 2 days or so)
    Now let's assume they run out of gas, and aren't where they need to be yet. They are finished! They are going to be calling Mr. Coast Guard because their gas tanks aren't going to automatically refill.

    Option #2: Electric Solar houseboat. 16-18 hours of batteries while actively traveling. Twin 90-120HP electric motors.
    They run out of batteries, and aren't where they need to be yet. At least they have the option to drop anchor and sit for a several days to get their energy back.
     
  4. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,900
    Likes: 197, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    That is not an answer for How?

    Oh, I get it. You don't solve the original problem, you just lower the requirements to a more reasonable level. Maybe even to the level of what's already been done. That is creative.
     
  5. Val567
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 0, Points: 0
    Location: Georgia

    Val567 Junior Member

    You know, when it comes to boat design, that is just it, it is a design. You have to be willing to change requirements to get the optimum trade off between money and performance. I have no problem with people saying, "Well, the way I see it, what you want to do would be 10M dollars or more, but if you are willing to relax X Y and Z requirements, you could cut the cost by more than half."

    When I came in here people were discussing the seaworthyness of a dutch barge. Apparently the consensus is that it is not seaworthy, so I tossed the idea, and replaced the request with a request for boat types that are seaworthy but have a lot of flat top space for solar panels. You see? :)

    EuroCanal's boats looks like they would be worth running some numbers on.

    I already came in here with the $120,000 design. I just wanted to know how much more it would cost to make it able to go across the pacific, and when I say that I don't mean the exact same boat. I mean it is ok to say, "Well you would have to change the base boat type to "A" instead of "B" and yes that will be considerably more expensive, but I think that is your best bet, and it still has room for plenty of solar panels."

    Now, with regard to constructive criticism, "No that won't work," is not constructive criticism. Why would that person bother posting? That is worthless.

    If a person thinks someone is off or wrong, what the person who wishes to criticize should do is:

    1. State that you think the other person is wrong.

    2. State the capacity specifically in which you believe they are wrong so that if they are right about some of it, and wrong about some of it, only the wrong parts are identified as being wrong.

    3. State WHY you think they are wrong or misinformed about those specific things.

    4. Back yourself up with proof: some kind of link that demonstrates the person being wrong, or some math, or physics.

    5. Offer an alternative or 2 that you think would solve that specific issue better.

    If everyone did this, the internet would be a much more constructive place.

    Here is an example of constructive criticism: "I think your double-decker trawler is too tall to travel the great loop. The tallest your boat can be is as tall as the lowest bridge you will be forced to pass under because there is no other way to avoid it... unless you want to make it the Great U-turn. Therefore, you should try to keep your boat under 15 ft tall. Would a single story houseboat still meet your needs?"

    People keep telling me to do the math. Believe me I have. They are right. It doesn't work if I approach the problem conventionally, but I didn't ask for electrical specs. I am just looking for an ocean going boat type that has a lot of flat top space - let's say 50-100ft long and $800,000 or less for the unmodified boat. I will handle the rest. Forget about all the solar stuff. Just pretend I hate boats that aren't flat on top.

    Now, with regard to HOW specifically I plan to do it, I don't know that I am prepared to share that information. I think I want to keep it to myself for now. Don't want everyone jumping on the idea, and then having the government come in and ruin it for me.

    If you think it can't be done... ok, I will listen. Where is your proof? Back it up with some numbers or stats or math or examples or something. When I show 5 examples of that something having already been done 5 different ways, it pretty much blows a hole in any statement about it not being possible.

    Then to say that it still isn't practical just because you don't LIKE those boats for one reason or another. :D Give me a break. Just because they don't meet my criteria exactly doesn't mean they aren't more than enough to prove it can be done. My design would be somewhat different to a degree more or less depending on money optimization. For example, I can stretch my arms outside the boat if I have to, and I could live with just a shower but no tub if that saves $100,000.
     
  6. Greenseas2
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 367
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 49
    Location: USA

    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Ok Val567

    I'm not saying the boat you decribed can't be built and fill the requirements you want....and I'm not saying it can be built. However, as with most projects you have to take it one step at a time. First, just concentrate on your motive power requirements. Obviously pure solar won't work. Think a little further and examine a combination of solar and wind turbine power for maybe 24 hour charging. As for the rest of the boat it's just too big. There is one that has been built by an engineer in the Netherlands and I sure there are blue prints to build it. It's called Noah's Ark.:cool:
     
  7. Val567
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 0, Points: 0
    Location: Georgia

    Val567 Junior Member

    Agreed. Lil too heavy I think, and yes I was thinking about wind too. Noah's Ark eh? Thanks very much. I'll look into it!
     
  8. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,900
    Likes: 197, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    .

    As Chris Rock says "Just because it can be done doesn't mean you should do it. You can drive your car with your feet, but that doesn't make it a good idea."

    Yes, well, OK.

    Wait. Surely, you being a designer AND an engineer aren't claiming that

    is a design, are you? A design is like, plans and sketches. Drawings and stuff. It seems more like a statement...

    except the facts are few and it's pretty light on the particulars, even for a statement.

    That's alright though, as the parameters have changed again...

    The short answer is, the odds are that since they spent $20 million dollars on the one solar powered boat that crossed the ocean, and untold millions on the other solar powered boat that crossed the ocean, they probably thought about it an awful lot and probably decided a catamaran was the best choice, since they were both catamarans.

    They did it, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea.

    .
     
  9. Wavewacker
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 696
    Likes: 21, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 226
    Location: Springfield, Mo.

    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Just wondering why you (Val) is stuck on a barge, a cat would be much better as suggested. Wondering too why you keep insisting on 50 to 100 feet?

    I'm not an engineer, but I do know that the more weight you have the more power you'll need to achieve a respectable cruising speed.

    So, why can't you modify an existing 32' to 40' catamaran? You won't need a football field of solar panels. Solar cells can be mounted in the deck surface they don't have to be on 3x5 panels. While many may not be oriented properly for the best efficiency it's been done with other vehicles.

    I'm an out of the box thinker, but no so far out that I lose reality. I'd begin by thinking of a micro-cruiser and moving up based on weight requirements and power consumption needs at a given speed and then worry about how much suface would be needed to power your boat. A trimaran could have a large aray on a much smaller boat.
     
  10. Val567
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 0, Points: 0
    Location: Georgia

    Val567 Junior Member

    If I gave the idea that I was really set on this idea of a barge, I apologize. I threw the barge idea out the window a while back. That was just the first idea, but it looks like that's not very realistic, so yes I actually am liking your cat idea.

    I have contacted some of the people that have made some of these things. I need to ask them what mechanical benefit exactly really sold them on the cat hull type.
     
  11. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,900
    Likes: 197, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    They move through the water very efficiently compared to other hulls and have a lot of flat top space.
     
  12. Red Dwarf
    Joined: Jun 2012
    Posts: 234
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 61
    Location: USA California

    Red Dwarf Senior Member


    I noticed your comment regarding constructive criticism. Well put but you overlooked the most important issue. The OP is held to a higher standard and if he chooses to be taken seriously must provide evidence and answers to how the dream is being realized. Just saying I'm smart and can solve problems is absolutely meaningless and will just turn off the audience. Post evidence of the homework you have done. This is very helpful as others may see solutions you overlooked or correct mistakes. Always start with a Statement Of Requirements and show others how you plan on achieving each requirement.

    Here is a great document I found in another thread, sorry I can't give proper credit to the poster as I don't know who it was. Read this and post your data and I am sure many people will help you with the design and its unique challenges.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. FMS
    Joined: Jul 2011
    Posts: 611
    Likes: 22, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 227
    Location: united states

    FMS Senior Member

  14. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,964
    Likes: 187, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member


  15. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,964
    Likes: 187, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Web Page Printing Question

    I've been revisiting this canal boat subject, and I wanted to print out a few 'Luxe Motor 2000 deksalon' designs and construction photos pages into a written document, BUT I can't seem to?? Is it me, or the way the pages are set up??

    At my older age I am not as computer literite as the younger generation...;)....and I like to review stuff in a 'written' manner :cool:
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.