Dutch Barge long distance cruisers

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Greenseas2, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    We are getting some distance from dutch barges with Gunboat catamarans introduced to the thread.....;)

    I have a few thoughts.....

    First, smaller vessels are less obvious, lower profile, and probably less attractive targets for all kinds of bureaucracy, pirates, whatever. I would urge a smaller and less, "in your face", approach.

    I think that something 60'-80' in length, with a beam of 24', could be easily driven (slowly) with smallish engines and some sail. If it was disguised as a tramp coaster it might be more easily accepted. Jay Benford has some designs (not intended for ocean work) that may be a useful starting point.
     
  2. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Right on Pericles, That is what I have chosen for SPACE and that does not mean "fill the space up with stuff" as weight penalises the cat format so learn to TRAVEL LIGHT, travel fast and leave the pets and the clutter in your life, on shore....

    You do not need a lot of **** - Is not that why you are going boating?
     
  3. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Mas.....

    Thankfully (what a boring world that would be) we don't all want the same thing....some want to get away from it all, others want to take it all along. Most of us fall someplace between extremes.
     
  4. rickthorn
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    rickthorn Junior Member

    Catamarans and Other Designs

    Thank you Pericles, I went to the "Gunboat" site and looked at the catamarans. They are large and beautiful, but I had neglected to mention above I must build myself and as cheaply as possible (probably impossible in itself.) I am retired and on very limited income, so my considerations for working on a vessel myself would be either steel or ferrocement. (Ferrocement scares me quite a bit...not so much weight, but in my life I have never seen concrete/cement which did not have cracks...scary thought for a ship, etc!) I have quite a few good books on building already and several design catalogs..."Small Ships" by Benford Design Group (plan prices unreal...so high!) Glen L and Clark Craft. I even had one catalog which listed several smaller, mostly flat top barges in it, but do not know what happened to that catalog and do not recall who it was by.
     
  5. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Wharram?
     
  6. pfennig
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    pfennig Junior Member

    ALMOST back to a dutch barge

    I've been following the Dutch Barge LRC discussion with great interest. The catamarans seem a bit off topic (can't travel many of the routes the barges can - i.e. canals). The design I've been working on isn't quite a Dutch Barge in styling, but it's closer in concept.

    [​IMG]

    It's modeled in SketchUp.

    It's similar to a barge in that it's mostly flat bottomed (though it has some rocker to it, rather than purely flat). It is designed for live-aboard for two only, though the 'cargo hold' is big enough to host dinner for 4 or 5. I've made sure the design is compatible with UK canals - the draft is 3'1", the maximum width is 10'10", and the air draft can easily be reduced to only 6'6" by collapsing the masts and the house:
    [​IMG]

    The dinghy is also a dory form, and is designed to be lashed down over the aft cockpit for long distance cruising:
    [​IMG]

    Particulars:
    Length Over All: 45'6"
    Length @ Waterline: 40'10"
    Beam Over All: 10'10"
    Beam @ Waterline: 8'5"
    Draft: 3'1"
    Air draft, house up: 8'5"
    Air draft, house down: 6'6"
    Headroom: 6'1" throughout
    Construction: Ply over frames (standard 2-by-X throughout)

    I haven't calculated displacement necessary to reach those numbers - i'm a doodler, not a nautical engineer. But using George Buehler's Pilgrim dory design as a guideline, it ought to be very light, around 12000 lbs. Power should be minimal, around 10-20 hp according to Buehler. Buehler calculates some overly optimistic range numbers for Pilgrim (70 mpg @ 6.4 knots to 15 mpg @ 8.6 knots), but I would expect excellent economy of operation as well as construction.

    My basic "aha" moment was basically realizing that the dory shape is essentially a barge shape that has had it's ends sharpened significantly and the sides flared out. And the Dory shape is supposed to be very seaworthy. I've heard the term "insanely survivable" used, though in the same sentence as "uncomfortable" :rolleyes: The pointed bow also makes it easier to add a mast in a big tabernacle without intruding on living space. Sail assist is a plus.

    I definitely prefer the aesthetics of true 'dutch barge' style replicas, but I doubt they would be as easy or cheap to build for an amateur. And the dory aesthetics are growing on me - it's also a 'traditional' design.

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2008
  7. pfennig
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    pfennig Junior Member

    Oh, and I forgot to mention, that with such low power requirements and large topside areas, you can put 3 kW worth of solar panels (assuming 20% efficiency, which is not completely out of the question) on it and use batteries for internal ballast (careful with the water chaps) and be largely fuel-independent with an electric motor. I drew in a 4.8 kW generator anyway - if building on the cheap, you could go with just the generator until you save enough to bolt on another solar panel.

    Grand Banks Dory Long Distance Cruiser Diesel Solar Electric Hybrid. It just rolls off the tongue :D
     
  8. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    I would not like to go out open ocean cruising though - - - seems quite appropriate for canals?
     
  9. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Buehler calculates some overly optimistic range numbers for Pilgrim (70 mpg @ 6.4 knots to 15 mpg @ 8.6 knots), but I would expect excellent economy of operation as well as construction.

    70 mpg would require 1/10 of a gal in fuel burn per hour.

    Most 5 hp diesels idle using more fuel.

    FF
     
  10. pfennig
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    pfennig Junior Member

    Yep, did I mention that the numbers were overly optimistic? ;)

    I have not 'run the numbers' myself, nor do I know the exact formulas to use, nor why the formulas may not apply in this case (too long/narrow/light for standard formula simplifications?), but I would optimistically aim for 10 mpg at displacement speed (smooth water, no wind, etc). Take Buehler's numbers and divide by 7 perhaps?

    I'm a little more curious as to whether the low HP requirements Buehler expects are reasonable. If it only takes 1.9 HP (1.416 kW) to go 6.37 knots at a V/L of 1.0, as Buehler claims, the possibility of solar power (with generator backup) is real. Electric motors have lots of torque, just like the big old <10 hp diesels from 'the old days' that drove largish boats, so an electric drivetrain might be just the ticket.
     
  11. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    As we've gone over before, (another thread which may turn up in search) the fuel use/HP numbers on Buehler's web site are completely mistaken. I have no idea why he doesn't correct them. There are lot's of his designs out there right now using far more fuel/HP than he quotes, yet the real life facts are ignored? He claims the 45' will use something like 12 HP to go 6.5 knots, IRL the boat requires 52 HP to do this speed, I have the fuel use numbers from the owner.

    Estimating weight quickly is a key to good design. You can't draw the boat until you know how big (volume wise) the hull needs to be, but you don't know how big the hull needs to be until you know the weight. You don't know the weight until you've drawn the boat.....gaaa! Circular problem!

    One easy first stab is to use the cubic number multiplied by a factor for the loading/material/construction/equipment. Cubic number is length*beam*hull depth (main deck to fairbody)/100. Multiply by something between .25 and .45 for ultra-light foam core to steel construction. That's a first guess displacement in long tons.

    Your boat (the dory above) is 45' by 10.83' by (say) 5' /100 = 24.36 * .35 = 8.52t = 19,000 pounds. This would be close. It's hard to imagine a true cruiser (with the equipment assoc.) coming out any less than this, more likely more.

    10mpg is not easy to achieve, it's rare in real life. See the sheet below.
    View attachment MPG.xls
     
  12. RCardozo
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    RCardozo RCardozo

    Picture of barge

    Attached, I Think. Soorry I am so late.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. RCardozo
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    RCardozo RCardozo

    Seaworthiness of a Dutch barge

    If these barges are so unseaworthy how is it that both the english and the Dutch had them running all over the coast? On New Years eve 2008 I crossed from Baltimore across the Chesapeake bay to Kent Narrows. The wind gusted to 65 mph and the seas were running 10' and peaking to 12' by the time we crossed the bay. Now the wind was dead astern but the boat was bone dry because of the high rounded stern. The biggest problem was steerage since the seas were comming so fast that the prop would have to fight for control being out of the water probably 25% of the time. Now I would not want to be getting that sea from the following quarter. ( the boat would roll so much you would be beaten alive) I have had the vessel heading into 7' seas on the bow quarter and she doent roll as much, justs blasts thru the waves. Think car wash. What people for get is that these were sailboats! My barge is cutter rigged with a 1200 s.f. gaf main and a jib and fore sail. There are many sail combinations to get the trim right. Regardless the boat heals so the effect is that of a steadying sail on a motor cruiser. I do not doubt that they picked their times but I am sure they could weather a blow in the north sea as least as long as it took to get to port. Also my barge is a zeetTjalk. These wewre of heavier construction so they could be bonded to cary cargo in more exposed locations. Now I would avoid hurricane season but getting from miami to the Bahamas would be a cake walk. I have been told my barge has been all over the Carribean! As a yacht w/o cargo but adequately ballasted I am sure it exhibits much more seaworthiness than you are giving credit. Now as only a motor yacht you are more vulnerable to the roll. Any boat running perpendicular to a high sea is gonna be battered around. I defend my barge to the death! Long live the barge!They
     
  14. RCardozo
    Joined: Oct 2006
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    RCardozo RCardozo

    73' Dutch Barge

    Sorry I have been away and not paying attention. I have heard rumors of Dutch Sailing Barges making trans Ocean voyages. I would love to hear about one. I would be very leery of it. In very heavy seas the barge may just split in half. Its bottom is not going to cleave the seas so much as smack into them. I know a 60' Dutch Sailing Barge near Tampa for sale fore 150,000. Another option is to get it rigged to be hoisted and see if you can get a captain to ship it. I beleive they can haul on their own account at their discretion. It may be cheaper. My 73' Dutch barge was brought from Holland after ww2 on a ship.
     

  15. Greenseas2
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    Greenseas2 Senior Member

    Original intention of the thread

    There's been a lot of good information in the responses to this thread, and there have also been a lot of deviations from it, but still good information. The original intent was to foster designs for a cruising Dutch style barge for cruising the inland waterway systems of the United States, sans coastal and ocean passages except in flat calm weather. The second intent was the development of an easy to build live aboard barge type cruiser for a small family. The bulding medium being basically plywood cored fiberglass and epoxy to both protect and stiffen the hull. I agree that the length is probably in the 40 to 48 foot range.

    Several larger ocean capable fishing fishing vessels have been built using this medium, so why would it be any more difficult to build a Dutch Style barge the same way. To save construction costs, some of the ply bulkheads are also and integral part of the design and take place of ribs. These would be the bulkhead behind the chain locker in the bow, a midship bulkhead with opening to the quarters and head forward, the engine room forward water tight bulkhead and engine room aft watertight bulkhead. This is also the method used by the late Philip Bolger in his AS-29 and AS-39 ocean sailing advanced sharpies. (29 feet and 39 feet respectively)

    Within the scope of the design parameters for a nice flat bottom long distance cruising Dutch style barge design there is no real need for rocket science and tons of technical data, just something that is functional, relatively inexpensive to build and has the beautiful aesthetics of a Dutch Barge. To reboot this design effort, let's consider the stiffening concerns of the hull that have been stated as an issue. The hull structure between the bottom and the deck can be something like and egg crate where the scarfed lengthwise plywood has cuts that go half way through the thin beams every 14 to 18 inches or so. The cross plywood sections are also cut halfway through and neatly fit in to the lengthwise section. All surfaces are epoxy covered and the lengthwise and crosswise sections are epoxied together. This is an extremely strong structure that will not permit the hull to twist. The same method is used on the sides of the of the boat with larger spacing and attached to the bottom crosswise members at their end. Also the design provides a plethora of mini watertight crash bulkheads and and flotation chambers when external and internal epoxy coated plywood sheathing is attached. see how it works and see the incredible strength, simply make a model with cardboard. No muss, no fuss, no hassle.

    The need for a simply and inexpensively built barge is well justified in the loss of of an untold number of homes worldwide today by foreclosure. and the loss of personal boats to reposession along with a pathetic resale and value market for both.
     
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