Duflex Panels from ATL, Worth it???

Hang on a moment Noah. I've been looking back at Freenacin's 19 previous posts. He states his location as Earth, but I suspect Australia. He may be working for ATL, who manufacture Duflex. There is much here that does not compute.

I hereby appeal for full disclosure. Freenacin, please reveal your true colours!

Pericles

 

Freenacin, the web site is meant for those that can read. On the final graphic on the page I assume you refer to is the phrase "The boat Bob made out of my grade school sketches" where it shows the finished profile. One of numerous comments made on the article that any normal person would understand as being deprecating of myself and flattering of a professional that I respect and who's service I sought out.

Now if Bob Oram took any offense to that he could have told me this morning when he came over for coffee but as a matter of fact he has expressed great pleasure with the project page. I gave Bob full and complete credit for making a great design out of my very rough input and anybody reading without a weird ax to grind should see that...

"eastcape" You've never gotten second rate material from a supplier? And if you did you copped it?

And yes Pericles... That doesn't compute. Though I have a disagreement with ATL at the moment, Michelle Crouch and I are on speaking and civil terms while we work this out. I will not, however, be silent if I think any supplier has delivered poor product and Michelle has granted that that is the case. We differ on how to resolve it so far. I know there are some production staff that are high on her **** list though.

 

Gee tcpbob, I'm not sure its as bad as it all looks , or is it? The two substandard panels ATL refunded you on can't have been that bad if you've kept the money and the two panels. Believe me you are going to use a bucket or two of bog so a few imperfections aren't going to create much extra work if any.

What you should be worrying about is peel ply stuck between the joint glueing surfaces of the joins. maybe its time to learn from your mistakes and listen to your mates , cut the peel ply back from the join and remove before joining.

Sort it out diplomatically with Atl instead of trying to scam money from them . Why you did'nt return the defective product before using it. escapes me.

 

This might shed more light on the subject.......http://www.hostmybb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=332&mforum=easy

 

Yes, I confess - I live in Australia! Therefore it must compute to you that I work for ATL??? Sorry - quite a few of us Aussies actually DON"T work for ATL. I'm one if them. Not bright enough to work for anyone else, I have to work for myself. I don't even live in the right state.

I have used quite a bit of Duflex before though, and I rate it highly as a boatbuilding material. I've also used Featherlight, another ATL product, which I don't rate at all. I'd use Nidaplast or foam before featherlight.

 

Really? This surprises me. I noticed some of the photo's in your build page showed a yellow label on the Duflex sheets. In one photo (the one with the glue cartridges) you can see the word peelply. Can you tell us what that label says exactly?

 

You know it confounds me how people can selectively read when they have a barrow to push.

To confront a few of these miss-quotes, errors in fact and just downright fabrications... I granted early on that if I had not used the peel ply mask method on the scarf joins I would have had far less problems. The reason I used that method was because it was shown to me by a professional boat builder and he recommended it as it saved fairing time. I saw it in action and it was very good looking. The difference was his panels were all correctly scarfed. Every one of over 160. I called him to verify later. I now know of many others that have used the system successfully. If the scarfs are correctly cut there is a gap in the peel ply on the join of about 5mm. Michelle granted that the method was perfectly acceptable. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE METHOD EXCEPT WHEN THE PANELS WERE INCORRECTLY SCARFED..GOT ALL THAT!? A minimum of 30 panels were thus affected but as soon as the problem became visibly apparent the method was changed. The less apparent joins that proceeded that particularly gross example were unfortunately overlooked in the process. Those all need some work to clean out the small, but I am told, significant bits of nylon strands from the peel ply. All of this has been stated and restated in this forum and on the web site. Shall I use smaller words!!

Now another myth to bust.. I have nothing against the product when correct. I chose it. The question from the beginning was whether the proposed compensation for the admitted faults was adequate or fair. I asked for comment as I granted I wasn't sure what was the go. waikikin has been kind enough to render his balanced opinion and I value it and have listened to it and will probably be influenced by it. Raving accusations on the other hand...

Bruce.. I was not expecting any problems because the product I had seen earlier was all good combined with the fact that the first 20 or so off my stack were all good, I failed to look at every panel prior to working them. A mistake I wouldn't make again and would recommend anyone about to set up gluing to do. Apparently it's "buyer beware" according to eastcape. If you don't spot it before you start working the product it's your problem. But you do have a point. As much of a pain in the tail as it would have been to stop in the middle of the process, maybe I should have interrupted it and talked it over with ATL, problem was though, they were gone for a month on holidays. My batch was shipped just as they were shutting for the holidays... might explain a lot. So I'm being punished for having faith in the product and trying to get the job done. Live and learn.

Good thing I caught the miss-aligned panels. The guy that helped me with the first few being glued told me to align by the edge but I was getting wary by then and watching everything. If I had followed his advise on that I would have had more problems.

Which brings up another myth.. No where have I critisised Michelle's behaviour or lack of professionalism so why the defense of it? In fact in a post yesterday I made specifically clear that that was not the case. Let me re-state that though with the smallest words I can think of... Michelle and I do not dis-agree on whether there is a problem, only on how to resolve it. Michelle has been honest with me in that she has identified the cause of problems when I didn't know, even though this did not enhance ATL's position. I have been just as frank with her. Our relationship is proof people can disagree respectfully, a lesson that should be learned here. If either of us were using the incendiary rhetoric with each other that is posted here we would not resolve this at all.

And to the notion that 'just 2 panels... get over it.. ' Not so. I had a designer/builder look at the glued panels and he granted he had seen these faults before. In the case of one or two panels he would have shined it on and forgotten about it and so would I. He granted though that my lot was the worst he had ever seen in total. So many affected. such a variety of faults. Michelle grants that 30 joins need repair and offers $10 each for the labour.

"scam money from them " Oh please.. That is a low accusation without merit. In conversation with Michelle the other day I proposed a possible solution, I offered to kick in another $2000 to exchange the lot that I have for a new set done properly and lose the work and material cost in gluing. I'm willing to pay more just to get the quality I should have gotten in the first place, just to be done with it and know my boat is right from the start. ATL would get a kit started they could sell at a discount. This was offhand and doubt they will go for it but if they did, the money would fly out of my pocket.

eastcape; Since I posted the web pages I have gotten some interesting mail. I know an international operation far bigger than yours that is now working on a new design range to reduce their duflex component due to chronic faults. I have also been contacted by a builder in the Whitsunday's who reported he had to threaten a law suit to get the up-graded panels (super lite) he ordered and paid for instead of the normal lot he got. ATL has had a good product but may be suffering from inconsistent workmanship. You've had good luck? Good, I'm happy for you.

If it was Michelle making and shipping them, they would be better I think.

 

I remember. It says "PLEASE REMOVE PEELPLY BEFORE USE"

Not bad for someone who can't read eh?

 

Thats the best you can come up with? You tried to imply I abused Bob Oram which was easy to expose for the nonsense that it was, and since that didn't fly you try for this piece of twaddle.

Every builder I know and ATL are quite clear that you remove the peel ply from only the surface you are working at the time and leave it elsewhere to protect the surface from contamination and UV. This is indicated very clearly on page 13 of the booklet that comes from ATL with the panels... you should have worked that out because they even have it in pictures. Two colour photos left hand side.

What is your real position here, you are way too desperate to criticize to not have an agenda you won't admit.

You have worked with ATL panels though, "quite a bit" so you say.

So why are you inventing these fraudulent little attacks? Can't wait to see what you come up with next.

 

and eastcape... I owe you an apology... I referred to another operation as "far bigger than yours".. I may have been wrong, at least as far as duflex panels go as it appears you are in virtual partnership with ATL. I had a look at your web site while I had my duflex booklet in hand and there you are, thats your boat in their book isn't it... page 1. (among others) OH you don't have a barrow to push do you!!! Whilst your loyalty could be considered admirable I could call it self serving interest.

You can protect your meal ticket if you want but I pledged to make this project public, warts and all and hard facts. My interests are to educate other amateur builders of what they may face, what I've faced, what works, what doesn't. It's going on 10,000 printed editions and about 15,000 "E" versions. It will be fair and factual and if it cost me a potential advertiser... it won't be the first. But I put my editorial independence above a buck.

 

I have been following this thread....accurately.
I was surprised by all the comments like "just a couple of panels...get over it" and other comments which ignore Bob's previous statements.
If you have a vested interest in defending ATL, then it's better to provide positive information rather than antagonise Bob. Just remember who is making this thread drag on.

Who the hell am I?
Just a nosey parker....enjoying this thread

 

Unless of course, someone's opinion is different from yours.

As you say, the normal practise is to remove the peelply from around the area you are working on. And when you're joining sheets of duflex, just what areas are being worked? Woulldn't be the scarfs would it?

 

Freenacin,

Please desist. You are boring. Go pester somewhere else.

Better yet, read these posted by Guillermo.

http://www.hiswasymposium.com/pdf/2006/I. Campbell.pdf

http://flygmac7.flyg.kth.se/msy/education/thesis/leygraf_jakob/leygraf.pdf

Pericles

 

Periclese, you've already embarrassed yourself in the discussion about "underwater hull forms for sailing catamarans". Please leave this discussion to people who actually have some idea what they are talking about.

Bob, I have no "agenda". Except that I have used duflex several times without any problems. And when I build my own boat it will be in duflex. And most likely designed by Bob Oram. (If you don't put him out of business) I don't work for ATL, I never have, and I don't own shares in the company. (If it's even listed) In fact I don't even buy all my materials there - I find some of their stuff to be expensive.

You've come in here asking if we think the amount offered by ATL is adequate compensation. Only you can decide that. Can you still build the boat to the standard you want with the materials supplied? Will the money/materials offered as compensation cover the cost and time involved in rectifying any faults?

If you think not, then wouldn't it make more sense to raise it with ATL, rather than here?

If you think it will, then get on with it and build your boat - IMHO duflex is a great material to work with - you might actually find yourself enjoying it.