Doubting what Naval Architecture master's degree to do

Discussion in 'Education' started by loroky, Nov 7, 2017.

?

What university to choose?

Poll closed Jan 6, 2018.
  1. Technical University of Denmark

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Delft University of Technology

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. KTH Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Newcastle University/University of Southampton

    2 vote(s)
    100.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. loroky
    Joined: Nov 2017
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Madrid, Spain

    loroky New Member

    Hello to everyone one,

    I'll finish my B.S. in Naval Architecture (240 ECTS) at the Technical University of Madrid next academic year (in June 2019).

    I'd like to get an entry-level job in Structural analysis (related to ships of course) after finishing the master's. Thus far, structural analysis is the thing I enjoy the most at university. I'll be talked through the FEM next semester by the way (I think it's quite useful for the design of ship's structures).

    In light of the above, I am thinking of doing a master's degree on Naval Architecture at a well-known european university, such as the ones mentioned in the poll. Which one do you think would be the best choice? I meet the main requirements these universities ask for (I already got my CAE and will maybe get the CPE in 2019, and I'm a 90% sure I'll get Upper Second Class Honours/a CGPA higher than 75%) thus that is not a problem for now.

    I would have a bit of trouble with the financiation in case I had to study at an English university because of the high prices of tuitions (around 13000€). That is something to take into account then, but not mandatory at all.

    I would like to base my career on Structural analysis as mentioned, though I am highly interested in Hydrodynamics (Fluid Mechanics in general) and in CFD too; what specialization do you reckon offers a better wage?

    In conclusion, I'd like to listen to some of you guys to eventually know where to do a Naval Architecture master's. I want the best for my career by all means.

    Thank you very much for your attention,

    Loroky.
     
  2. Ben Landgren
    Joined: Jun 2017
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 1, Points: 3
    Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne

    Ben Landgren Junior Member

    Hi Loroky,

    I did part of my undergrad (yacht design and production) in Southampton Solent and I always had the feeling that the competing institution, Southampton University was very popular among the people who wanted to take on Master's in Naval-Architecture.

    I ended up taking my Master's in Newcastle University in Marine Engineering. Yes, it was expensive but I was ready to pay the money as it is just one year and then straight back to the industry. I was really happy with my experience in Southampton Solent and based on what I have heard the Southampton Uni Master's should be very good. Of Newcastle Uni I was expecting more than it was really. Mainly because they have all these cool stuff there like cavitation tunnel and wind/wave/current tank but most of the class was never given a chance to see them. The thing with UK institutions is that in the end of the day it is pure business, where you are expected to pay for everything. You might be lucky and get superior teaching or less lucky and have most of your lecturers be just PHD students with no experience from industry and feeling ripped off.

    Here is one more option to consider: Maritime Engineering (Nordic Master) http://www.aalto.fi/fi/studies/education/programme/maritime_engineering_master/
    I am not sure if you are familiar already with that, but the idea is that you study one year in one institution, and the other year in another. When you graduate, you will have a master's degree from 2 unis from 2 different countries.

    I hope I was of help to you

    Ben
     
  3. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 5,545
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Loroky

    Welcome to the forum.

    Following on from Ben's post above. I did my undergraduate at Solent and my Masters at Southampton Uni (with the PhD follow on...). Southampton Uni has world Class facilities and lecturers. It has recently had a major cash investment and it is linked with LR, as LR has its own HQ on the campus now. Thus LR has a symbiotic relationship with Southampton Uni..which allows industry to feed directly and vice versa.

    Last time i looked Southampton Uni was inside the top 1% uni's in the world...it may have slipped a tad since, I dont keep up really. Thus, I can highly recommend Southampton Uni.

    Their new test tank is huge, some 140m, their R&D facilities are truly world class!

    Forget money. Do what you love..that is more important than money.
    If you're interested in money/salary....go be a Lawyer or accountant....sadly. Naval architecture is a passion, or should be; not a 9-5 get my money.
     
  4. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,099
    Likes: 116, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    After studying at the ETSIN in Madrid, I do not know if Southampton will be enough for you.
     
  5. loroky
    Joined: Nov 2017
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Madrid, Spain

    loroky New Member

    Hello again,

    Thanks for the welcoming and your responses.

    First of all, I don't quite understand what TANSL means by "I do not know if Southampton wil be enough for you.". I personally think I'm having a pretty good instruction here at the ETSIN if what you mean is that they might not admit me in a master's. In fact, two or three of my older fellow colleagues have studied in Southampton after taking the Bachelor's degree in Madrid. Anyways, I can see you're Spanish like me, so maybe you could give me a thorough explanation of what's between the lines you posted.

    Moving on to the main topic, it's been three months and I still have my doubts;

    I am currently taking a mini-course in small craft design. The professor of this course told us that the University of Southampton is prestigious and widely known for its researchers' experience in yacht design, but I prefer bigger stuff if you know what I mean... As I said, I really like Structural Analysis, a bit more than Hydrodynamics that is an area that concerns more Yacht Designers.

    The day before yesterday I was in class, looking up some information in LR rules (sort of tedious if it's the first time by the way) to design the midship section of a bulk carrier, and our teacher said that people working for DNV-GL or LR work at better offices (with better facilities) than people working for BV for example... That's all I know about these Class Societies so far: I have no notions about what working for a Class Society could be like or if it's more fulfilling than other jobs.

    Money is not key, I know, but if I could focus my career on something that I really enjoy and is well paid, it would have major benefits.

    I know that feeling... "You might be lucky and get superior teaching or less lucky and have most of your lecturers be just PHD students with no experience from industry and feeling ripped off." Some of the PhD students do have working experience but others just fantasize with their own stuff and their research (and that's something I'm barely attracted by).

    That's all I guess, thank you Ben and Ad Hoc very much for your comments and views on this.

    I hope you're doing well.

    Loroky.
     
  6. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,099
    Likes: 116, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    I want to say the opposite of what you have interpreted. My opinion, and I know that many people will not like it, is that with the training you acquire at the ETSIN-O in Madrid, which is great, the University of Southampton is not going to provide you with many worthwhile things, compared to the cost which is very high.
    If you had studied in Cartagena, I would not tell you anything but being from Madrid, that's what I think. I have also had professional contacts with people who have done the Southampton yacht course.
    In my opinion, from the experience I have had with several CS, from the point of view of structural analysis, DNV was the best. It was very good on passenger ships. I guess that by joining with GL it will not have gotten worse.
    Cheers, querido "amigo y compañero".
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  7. loroky
    Joined: Nov 2017
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Madrid, Spain

    loroky New Member

    Oh, I understand... I just found it pretty weird for someone to say that so I thought you meant right the opposite.

    I see your point. The ETSIN is indeed the best School of Naval Engineering in Spain by far to the best of my knowledge. The thing is that we have to vote for the new president in two days (on Friday 23d) and the Master's is not well structured. I'd repeat some of the courses already studied in the Bacherlor's if I took the Master's, and that is not good at all. Luis Ramón Núñez has promised the students that if elected, he will change that, but for now, if that doesn't change, I don't think I'll study the master's at this School.

    Back to the topic, yes, I do think it's incredibly expensive (especially for a Spanish student). However, there are plenty of options such as studying at the TU Delft (the prices are around €2060 per year, more or less the same as here in Madrid), or the Nordic Master's that Ben mentioned (which is for free for EU students). That's why I'm asking for your opinion.

    We have a 100 meter long towing tank at the ETSIN; the thing is that the length is not that important, but the beam and depth of the tank (the larger the beam of the tank is, the longer and wider the ships tested can be because of the Boundary Layer, I guess you know perfectly what I'm talking about). The length of the tank just makes it easier to get more different points in one try (that is, more points in less time -> efficiency) so I don't quite reckon the length is an important datum actually. In my opinion, it is not crucial to have a large test tank because it's mainly meant for researchers. The students like me just do 5 or 6 different tests to get some practical ideas of how hydrodinamics work (for now, I've done 3 out 5 tests programmed for the Bachelor's, the next 2 are to be done throughout this semester), I guess it's pretty similar in The University of Southampton.

    However, I have to say that I got emotional when I visited the ship model basin of El Pardo in Madrid (the fourth-largest on the planet) with my colleagues thanks to our professor Luis Pérez Rojas. Those facilities were just in a league of their own, the towing tank was around 320 meter long, there was a giant cavitation tunnel and a maneuvering and seakeeping basin (150 meters long, if that's what AdHoc meant by "test tank") which was being used to test the new frigates F-110 constructed by Navantia for the Spanish Navy... Seeing that frigate model beeing analysed in the basin was just lovely. I pretty much went off on a tanget, so with this, I guess I wanted to clarify that if there's a need for students to know a few things about ship model basins, I've already fulfilled it, so I'm not interested in that anymore, but in practical stuff, since, like I said, test tanks seem to be meant for researchers or, of course, ship designers that want to pay hundreds of thousands of euros/pounds/whatever.

    Thanks again to you all for your responses. Espero que vaya bien compañero, cheers.

    Loroky.
     
  8. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,099
    Likes: 116, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    I see, now I understand why you are looking for a university to do the Master. In my time there was no need to do any Masters to obtain the title. The title of naval architect and naval engineer was obtained directly, both at the same time.
    Regarding test tanks, CEHYPAR is among the four best in the world. The Southampton or the ETSIN are mere "toys" compared to it.

    If the master's courses are not well developed in Spain, if I were you would look for a university in the north of Europe and learn German since it seems that you already speak English fluently.
    Good luck with your choice.

    By the way, as a special favor, could you send me (PM) the texts that about scantling are given in the DTY course ?. I have developed a software for scantling according to ISO 12215 and I would like to compare it with what is taught in that course. Many thanks.
     
  9. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 5,545
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Perhaps you're getting confused between Southampton Solent University and The University of Southampton.

    Both do teach yacht design, but Solent focus more on yachts and small craft. Whereas The University of Southampton does all, but focuses mainly on the "big stuff" as you put it :) and you can take your Masters in which ever subjects you prefer.

    In addition, LR now has its main HQ located on the campus of Southampton University. Their R&D centre is part of it...best of both worlds!

    I'd hardly call a 140m long test tank - a toy!!

    http://www.nwtf.ac.uk/html/datasheets/Soton_LS9.pdf

    http://www.wumtia.soton.ac.uk/sites...rvices/Boldrewood Towing Tank Version 1.6.pdf

    Education is about quality not just quantity too!
     
  10. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 5,099
    Likes: 116, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 300
    Location: Spain

    TANSL Senior Member

    As Loroky has pointed out, it is a question, not only of the length, but of the breadth and the depth. You should know.
     
  11. loroky
    Joined: Nov 2017
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Madrid, Spain

    loroky New Member

    Hello again,

    Thanks for the responses. By "big stuff" I merely mean I really like big ships, in which the structural analysis is crucial, whereas when it comes to small craft, the hydrodynamical design is more important as far as I know.

    To be honest, I thought they were the same university.

    Well well, that's pretty attractive I must say. After doing some research, I see that they do have courses on structural analysis, but they're sheerly two or three courses. I guess it has to do with the fact that it is only one year of teaching. If it was two years maybe it'd be easier to get a more thorough understanding of marine structures:
    MSc Maritime Engineering Science Naval Architecture | Engineering and the Environment | University of Southampton https://www.southampton.ac.uk/engineering/postgraduate/taught_courses/engineering/msc_maritime_engineering_science_naval_architecture.page#modules

    Yes, for sure, like I said, no matter how big your test tank is, if it's only meant for researchers. However if they showed the physics behind every test then it'd become top.

    Thanks,

    Loroky.

    PS: By the way TANSL, I don't quite know what you mean by DTU course , and also I don't know how to write a PM Write to me so that I can understand what you want.
     

  12. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 5,545
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Your reply suggests to me that you do not have much of a background in structures? Since the Masters Course assumes you already have an understanding of marine structural theory via any normal degrees course.
    If you wanted to focus on structures as your main topic..then why not do a masters in structures and materials dynamics alone ??
    MSc Maritime Engineering Science Advanced Materials | Engineering and the Environment | University of Southampton https://www.southampton.ac.uk/engineering/postgraduate/taught_courses/engineering/msc_maritime_engineering_science_advanced_materials.page#modules
    ...or one that has more of a structures related to your own interest like say offshore engineering:
    SESS6071 | Marine Structures in Fluids | University of Southampton https://www.southampton.ac.uk/courses/modules/sess6071.page

    For example?

    UK university Masters Degree courses which are taught, are all 1 year courses. It takes what you have and adds greater depth to it.
     
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