Does vinyl ester grip better to glass or carbon?

Discussion in 'Materials' started by jim lee, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. jim lee
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    jim lee Senior Member

    Does anyone know how well vinyl ester resin gips to carbon as opposed to glass fabric? Is it close to the same, or does it grip better on one or the other?

    Thanks!

    -jim lee
     
  2. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Have always used Vinylester with carbon ans never had any issues with it !! You really need to go to the carbon supplyer to get the answers you are looking for !
    Not all resins are the same so a brand and product number you will be looking for .
    What are you wanting to build ?? :confused:
     
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The problem is the question quite broad and "loaded". What kind of carbon? Weave type, sizing, finishing? Resin formulation, brand, laminate schedule, etc., etc., etc.

    It would be more helpful if you refined the question with it's application or intent.
     
  4. ondarvr
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    Carbon is more difficult to bond to, much research has been done over the years to help improve it.
     
  5. jim lee
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    jim lee Senior Member

    Well, it was meant as a general question. I don't have a specific use in mind really. I was just wondering in general.

    I'd gotten the foggy idea that vinyl ester might NOT grip carbon as well as glass.

    If this is the case, just swapping carbon for glass might actually make for a weaker part. (Without switching to an epoxy resin)

    -jim lee
     
  6. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    During the construction of a 147 foot super yacht Vinylester resin was used totally for its construction . I was in charge of a department and we made all the structure panels and framing including ring frames we used Glass and carbon all the time Perioticly samples were sent to the engineering department of the Auckland university for rigerous testing . Initally we were told to make special samples which to me was like cheating so later we just cut sections off the panels or parts we where making all the time, not once ever was there any sort of enquiry as to the quality exspectaions , everything passed with flying colours and always exceeded by a small percentage what the theoretic and actual test results were exspected to be . Which meant cure , resin content ,Glass to resin ratios were on the mark always, bonding of glass and carbon was within exspentions for all the tests carried out . Some laminates were combitations of carbon and glass layers for parts such as colision bulkheads and longtudinal stringers plus Eye beams with carbon top and bottom and glass/foam webbing inbetween .in total we made hundreds of meters of beams so were made as long lengths and cut to length as required
    I was amazed at the weigth of a 10 metere long beam was only 50 kgs and one guy could lift and carry . We made all these 100mm wide beams were to go across the hull for floors to be mounted on for all the differant levels . plus smaller sections to run lengthways between all these had carbon laid in multipal layers with no joins from one end to the other ,as were also the main girders in the bottom of the hull . every 6 layers of carbon uni's and a double bias was used to tie and hold the carbon uni's together . After a while all this work just became second nature and every one saw and checked every one elses work and had there own work checked as well . This was to be the key ingrediant to making everything and when we had a new member come to work with us they were scruitinized all the time till they learned our methods and standars of what was exspecated of them . In the 4 years never ever was anything made substandard in any way ,the DNV inspecters never ever questioned but always complimented our department for its unquestionable consistancy of everything we made and work we did , also the work space and equipment and everything in general was spotless and worked like a well oilded machine all the time as it should do !!! .:)

    So in answer to your origanal question i personally have no doubts that the two must be very close to the same amount of grip and i feel carbon under tension loads need to be encapsulated with layers of glass to prevent tearing , shearing and delamination under exstreme loadings .
     
  7. nrg
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    nrg Junior Member


    Any application that does not need flex gets epoxy. Any application to glass that needs to flex, still gets epoxy. Some people swear by glass for a traditional restore, I doubt that the flex gained comes with much compared to the strength of west Bros epoxy and micro-beads.
     
  8. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Is there a point to your post NRG or did you forget to put a smiley face icon, after you comments? For what it's worth, a resin and micro sphere or balloon mixture isn't very strong at all, which is why both materials are reserved for fairing compounds and bulking only.
     
  9. ondarvr
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    You can buy carbon that is designed to be used with VE, Vectorply has a line of them. If you just find a good deal on carbon it may not be compatible.

    You can also use a rubber modified VE for even better bonding to the fiber.
     
  10. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Loose ended coments that make no sense comes with age !What the hell was NRG going on about ??? got me beat !!:confused:
     
  11. jim lee
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    jim lee Senior Member

    Thanks ondarvr. Like I said, I was just thinking out loud in text. I'd like to play around with some clear carbon, but I didn't want to make the parts weaker. Vinyl ester we have around here.

    -jim lee
     
  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Tunnels, apparently NRG made 15 posts yesterday after joining the forum that morning. I'm not sure if this was his last post for the day, but after the intense insertion into the dozen or so threads all in one day, he might have been a little winded and running out of things to say, at least coherently. Give him time to recover, maybe a night's sleep to catch his breath . . .
     
  13. FishStretcher
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    FishStretcher Junior Member

    I have never heard of clear carbon fiber, but I haven't used any in a while. Seeing your location, there should be LOTS of local knowledge and sourcing for composites, as Boeing still does some work up there.

    WWU up in Bellingham, and I supect, WU in Seattle, probably has lots of experts on this. When we built Vinyl Ester and glass and carbon automobiles at WWU, I was told that a compatible sizing was quite important, but there are probably other factors?
     
  14. jim lee
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    jim lee Senior Member

    "Clear carbon" Clear coated carbon. Mostly for looks. Sorry for the confusion.

    Not like the "white carbon" that was found on the on one of the racing sailboats up here when the side fell off. Was supposed to be carbon layup right?

    -jim lee
     

  15. jrork
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    jrork Junior Member

    Jim Lee like in Banderlog Jim Lee? Great to see youre keeping busy. I just picked up a new project and will likely be on here a bunch as I work on it. Take care.....john
     
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