Do I need a naval architect? Boat furnishing designer?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by tomjack, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yeah, but is a place where you'd trust the results of the low cost efforts?
     
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  2. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    That is about a $ 1.56/hour working 8 hours/day-6 days a week.
     
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    There's a lot more to making pictures in a CAD program. Some "technician" types can manipulate CAD to great effect, but have they an engineering background, preferably an understanding of the marine environment and typical material choices? At these prices, you just don't know, though some key questions might reveal all and your search for someone will continue. This may suggest a professional is necessary, though I still insist accommodations can be fleshed out by an experienced fabricator. I don't even think you'd need CAD drawings, unless (again) this isn't a one off and you'll need some repeat-ability. I'm sorry, but the few hours of effort I can put into a drawing, wouldn't be very complete after $150 worth of time.
     
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  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I agree that you don't need CAD unless it goes into production. A general sketch is good enough for a one-off build.
     
  5. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Naturally, a person who defends that no plans are needed to build a boat, how is he going to say that CAD is necessary?
    I insist again that the OP has asked for help for the CAD of his ship. Therefore it does not make sense to tell him that he does not need CAD. Whether he needs it or not, whether it's an on-off construction or not, he asks for help for CAD. And I want to assure you again that the price is not the problem of getting a model of the boat in CAD.
    There are countries in which labor is very cheap in which you can find great creators of CAD models. The minimum interprofessional salary, if such a thing exists, does not define the quality of the CAD models, fortunately.
    We agree, the CAD is not necessary, although it facilitates many things. Some of the most complicated boats have been designed and built without the help of CAD. Neither is welding necessary as we know for years that rivets exist.
     
  6. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Agree. And they are called draftsman (tech persons, staff, ect) and salaried unlike labor, which are waged.
     
  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    No one is suggesting he needs no plans.
    So, as a professional, you'll take his money for something he may not necessarily need?
    Maybe you can accept that $150 for a set of accommodations drawings is perfectly acceptable, but I surely can't, nor would I be able to trust these drawings, particularly if compliance was required on a production run. So, how much work can you perform for $150 (USD)?
    We're as responsible professionals, are called on for the answers, regardless of what a client may think they actually need. These answers should also include the options for a more appropriate cost break down. In other words, not requiring work be performed that isn't necessary. Lastly, would the $150 CAD technician be able to spec out the appropriate type of welds or even rivets if asked in his cut rate shop or would the drawings just show butted plates, no stress riser accommodation, weld types, etc. and let the fabricator figure it all out on their own? I'd hazard to say that the $150 shop wouldn't have a clue. Or maybe more to the point, if you happen to know of a CAD technician that can render full up 3D models, for $150 bucks a crack, I've got some work for him . . .
     
  8. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    @PAR, I think I'm not expressing myself well because I have the feeling that I have not said anything about what you say I said.
    I'm not talking about a generic boat project, nor am I talking about the complete set of the accommodation plans, I'm talking about what I think the OP is asking for.
    I have never said that (I repeat it again in case someone wants to hear me), so please do not turn my words around. Also, I talked about 150 euros, which represents something over 150 USD;)
    I know that perfectly well but I mean that a person who started a thread a few months ago defending the advantages of building a boat without plans, can hardly defend here, in this thread, the need for CAD in shipbuilding. It would not be logical.

    I insist, nobody is talking, at least I do not do it here, of a client that the professional should advise in the best possible way. In this thread the OP has asked for help for the CAD of a certain boat.
    That said, I should not have to explain that what I say, I think, is applicable to what the OP is asking and is not applicable to the generic design of a ship. I do not know if, finally, I have been able to explain myself. Make an effort, please, to understand me. If you can not understand me, ask before deciding that I have said what I have not said.
     
  9. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'm not putting words into your mouth, I quoted you directly.
    I think the OP suggested he may need some CAD work for his ideas, possibly just to help him visualize things and as I've repeated several times, I don't think he needs CAD work, unless it's a production run, needing repeatable results.
    Unlike most, I assume the client isn't always right, in fact usually is incorrect, which is why they hire a professional in the first place.
     
  10. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    There is no client here and there is no reason to assume that the client is wrong. No one has asked if something is necessary or not necessary. There is simply a gentleman who says the following:
    You should not assume anything, you only have, if you want, to advise what kind of professional can do a 3D rendering and, in my opinion, rendering without a CAD program is not easy and I do not know any reason that makes that work expensive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  11. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    TANSL, this is what you've said . . . .

    In post #6 you advised a high quality worker to create the 3D model...
    And in the same post #6 you also advised that the 3D model preferable should be created by a Naval Architect in combination with the other design work...
    And then in post #11 you said the cost associated to create the 3D model should not exceed € 150.
    (And please don't continue your drivel about the little rate difference with the US $ at this moment, because that's only a distraction maneuver of yours, like usually.)
    While in post #6 advising a Naval Architect as the executor of the job, as shown in the first two quotes of this post.

    And since then on this thread you're only twisting and turning other people's and also your own words about this, just for polemic sake, like you always do.

    Of course a inconversant kid in a attic room at the house of his parents, while using a free CAD program of low quality on his laptop there, would be happy to perform the 3D model job with very little detail for the price you named, but not the conscientious Naval Architect, which you have advised for this job, nor any good creator of 3D models in the western world would be able to do so while maintaining his office with computers and software and all the other stuff that's needed there, and also earning some income.

    So either your advice for the work was fake, or the price you named was fake, and I'll think it was both fake considering your later fudge¹ on this topic.

    ¹ presenting and dealing with the issue in a vague, noncommittal, and inadequate way, with twisting and turning of your own words.

    So, from the price you named combined with the qualifications you advised for the work, and the later twisting and turning, I'd conclude you're talking straight nonsense on this thread . . :(

    P.S. - - To the Boat Design Net Moderator,

    I'll think I've substantiated the last above statement sufficiently in this post, so it's not denigrating meant, but just a description of the truth as comprehensively demonstrated in this post, thanks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  12. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    I also very much disagree with the emphasised part in the above quote, like in any metier, there are also some dilettantish¹ sciolists² in the boat design profession, so not just any designer can do the calculations that the project needs in a proper manner at the required quality of work, you'll need one with at least reasonable knowledge and skills in the trade³.

    ¹ The way of cultivating an area of interest without real commitment and/or without knowledge at the required level.
    ² A person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed.
    ³ A job requiring skills and special training.
    Behave so as to make it appear that something is the case when in fact it is not.

    You'd better check for these things before issuing any assignment, asking for references and examples of executed assignments would be a good thing, which is quite the opposite of what you say here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
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  13. JSL
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    JSL Senior Member

    Make sure whoever does the work has some boating experience..... you don't want an "architects dream" ..... the corrections can be expensive
     
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  14. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Good point JSL ! - PAR also mentioned this important point in post #2 . . .
    It's a bit of a pity that some advice otherwise, but then they also contradict themselves, so I'll doubt there's any value in comments like the below one from post #13 . .
    TANSL, note your twisting and turning, just everywhere, first in post #6 you're advising a Naval Architect as the executor of the model job (see my post #26 about this), and then in post #13 you're falsely saying an experienced modeler, but without any naval design experience, could do the job too.

    Well if so, then why first advising the costs of a Naval Architect for the job, when this is not necessary at all in your own view . . :confused: . . ?

    And I'll tell you, if you want to float the boat level, on its original draft, and also want to maintain the original stability, after getting another interior plus some layout changes, then sure you'll need anyone who's involved to be experienced in what they do to anything that floats.

    So I'll regard your advice here to be very false.

    BTW, this doesn't look to me as such a major job, on an already existing boat, that it would necessarily take a Naval Architect to be involved, in my view an experienced boat designer/builder with proven products would be ideal here, just sit around the table with them and talk it over, and act from there.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017

  15. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Ad Hoc, who runs a great Naval Architecture office in Japan agrees with you, and says it as follows in the thread ‘‘The use of a decision matrix to prioritize SOR items in the boat design process’’ post #31
    In my opinion only the greatest dare to tell their clients pre contract what they need to hear, and not only what they want to hear at that time, which prevents incorrect expectations after the contract has been established, and ultimately their clients benefit highly from this sincere method of work.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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