Do boat designers need to be naval engineers

But he was an industrial designer by vocation http://history.gmheritagecenter.com/wiki/index.php/Earl,_Harley_J. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley_Earl. In those early years of the mass production, there were artistically gifted or trained people who had a skill of giving a nice shape to products. Later on the term "industrial design" was introduced to describe their job. Harley Earl eventually became the chief of GM styling office, but remained an industrial designer, just a hierarchically on a higher position.

 

I agree. I led the engineering side of the collaberation between engineering and asthetic design for a number of automobiles, and the best results occured when there was a close working relationship with mutal respect. My mantra to the engineering team was don't tell me that it won't work, tell me what is needed to make it happen. In some cases the engineer's response would lead to an even more creative idea from the designer.

 

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The dream team for a one off custom yacht consistes of world class shipyard, a seaman Naval Achitect , a sylist who can coordinate the two and an Owner who can afford to pay for it all..

This dream team is difficult to assemble.

 

I strongly doubt Harly Earl ever used the term "industrial designer" to describe himself or the stylists who worked for him at the General Motors Styling Staff. (Styling Staff was renamed Design Staff in the 1970's.)

General Motors Styling Staff was considerably more than just the "styling office" and Harley Earl became a vice president of General Motors. I worked at GM, starting two and a half decades after Harely Earl retired, and spent quite a bit of time working directly with Design Center. I've met a few folks who had worked under Harley Earl. My understanding is he did no actual design work but rather provided "direction", for at least most of his career at General Motors.

"We should emphasize that during most of his tenure at GM, Earl was not a stylist in the conventional sense. He didn't draw or mold clay, and his staff rarely saw him with a pencil in hand. He oversaw a steadily growing army of artists, modelers, and body engineers, whom he directed with a language of grunts, gestures, and oblique euphemisms. All of the designs created during his reign, however, bore his influence." http://ateupwithmotor.com/luxury-and-personal-luxury-cars/62-cadillac-sixty-special-1938-1942.html

 

I believe Naval Architect is the one who should coordinate, not the stylist
In reality, stylists are often found to coordinate because they are often in customer's field of sight. But this is the same as hiring nail make-up girl to manage medical treatment.

 

It really depends on the design. For more functional designs where people comforts are not too important (commercial fishing boats, patrol boats, ocean freighters, navy ships), the vast majority of the boat is functional in nature and a nautical architect/engineer does most of the structural design work. Also, keep in mind projects employ electrical, propulsion & other specialty engineers.

What you are referring to above for interior/exterior design help fits the definition of an industrial designer (ID). For boat, ship, auto, air & other types of vehicles & products that involve art the role of an industrial design engineer is of great importance and helps establish brand recognition. In many cases the shapes and ideas are consulted with artists and then morphed into beautiful shapes that interface with the rest of the product.

Below is about the best industrial magazine you'll find.

http://www.id-mag.com/

Such industrial designers, at least the good ones, are well paid for their skills. The best ones are either very artistic or work with various types of artists to help them achieve the shapes they need.

I'm a full time design consultant for various industries (boats are a hobby) and this is the way it works in the real world. In transportation industries, by far the automotive industry leads the way in the area of industrial design, with boats, planes and locomotives following behind. Then there's the vast market of consumer products (e.g. iPod, toys, blow dryers, etc.) with the best ones involving heavy industrial design input.

These days, for any good boat with artistic/sex appeal, you typically have a diversified design team that includes a mix of good people. To say an industrial designer is not used 99% of the time is a gross misstatement. It really depends on the project.

 

Perhaps.

When working with new constructions its valuable to have a critical eye cast . Often the Naval Architect is sidetracked with structural issues and practicality and boatbuilder simply wants to get the show on the road.

Ive seen mock ups built in the shop , approved by builder, architect and owner, ready for construction with the only criticism coming from a stylist who commented that when the transom door was open and viewed from the side its profile was too thin...not structurally weak ...but giving the yacht an image of fragility. He was correct.

On one yacht , to give a open atmosphere to the saloon the standing rigging...chain plates were uncovered. The stylist visited one day, saw this bright polished stainless chainplate in the saloon then insisted that we remove and sandblast to give a semi gloss titanium look...he was correct.

So many details on a yacht...

 

JosepgT, thanks for interesting link, really great items there.

OK, there is a discussion of this:
http://www.id-mag.com/gallery/Volitan/718948
Award winning 'design', but is there anything excerpt that it is unusual? Any engineering behind? Yes it is eye-catching because such craft never seen before, but is it enough to be good design?

From first glance, it looks like 'appendage carrier'; will never deliver the speed corresponding to wake drawn, because of appendages drag only.

Completely different approach is here:

This is sketch dated early 1940-s, drawn by Rostislav Alexeev, famous designer of hydrofoil craft and WIGs. Note careful planning of towing experiment, and engineering knowledge behind the sketch. The craft is innovative and the guy has real artist's eye, besides he was a naval architect with (later) doctor degree.

 

Hello Alik, interesting foil concept there. It does appear the designer has some artistic talents too, which is always a plus for cool shapes. Such people typically do well so long as their designs work! Also, sometimes it takes years for bold new concepts to become mainstream.

For really cool boats you'll find the recreational boat market (ski boats, luxury yachts) do a superior job in the area of industrial design. I have spent many days and had many a dinners with interior/exterior designers, mainly in the area of luxury business jet design. The best are paid big $$$$$$, and most good ones are experienced enough to know when to exert influence on a structural design, be it a hatch, deck location or whatever. After all if people won't use it because it looks ugly or impractical, why build it?

 

:idea: :idea:

It's great seeing you guys come out of the box!

If I were a free lance N/A doing one offs, designers would probably be my bread and butter, they would keep me off the street and since an established designer would be in the line of sight of the consumer, a good relationship with several could be a good way to go. Who knows, one might know a good good surgeon! LOL

Now, I need to run, gotta get my hair cut.....no, styled! Later guys.....

 

Different people, or even the same person in different situations, have different ideas of what constitutes good design, whether it be clothing, furnishings, architecture, automobiles or boats. Prominent are different views of tradeoffs between asthetics and other aspects, particularly functionality. And functionality depends on how the object will be used. Even for asthetics there are different ideas of what good asthetics are. In the world of art there is a large segment which highly value artwork which is different and unique. Others value good execution of traditional ideals.

 

What is involved with luxury business jet design? Is it limited to the cabin furnishings, surface coverings, etc, including the layout withing the pre-determned structure? If so then that sounds more like the extension of what an interior designer does for an apartment or house than what an industrial designer does for product design.

 

All this talk about which is better, an NA or a stylist, is really moot.

Neither. Normally they complement each other and work together to produce the whole.

I have known NAs who were very good artists (one even had a lot of his art work published and had showings.) I have known a few NAs who didn't know a #2 pencil from an HB pencil.

On the other hand the NA mentioned above, has a son who is a graphics artist/stylist/designer who now has his own firm, and if you use Black and Decker products, you have probably used stuff he has designed. He is not an engineer. He designs the look and feel. Some one else does the engineering, but they work together to create the product.

I don't doubt for a moment that there are NAs who can do both styling and engineering, and Stylists who can do both as well. But in most instances, unless you are talking about small craft, it is a design team that works together to create the whole.

Many years ago I worked in a shipyard's naval architecture division, and we had a team of twenty or so working on any one ship. We all worked together to create the finished product. I did mostly number crunching, and assisted with other tasks, and on one occasion a little design work. I got my knuckles rapped by the machinist who pointed out to me that though the drawings were beautiful, it was impossible to make. So I had to do it over with his input. In other words, teamwork!

Now with small craft, say up to 60 feet or so, you may find some were designed solely by one person, but when it comes to bigger vessels it is just way beyond the scope of one person to do everything. There are just too many systems for one person to deal with. But, they all have to go together so that everything works. You can't have electrical systems running through pipes carrying liquid, or through fuel tanks. It all has to be coordinated. That's where the chief engineer, usually an NA comes into his own. Making sure everyone is working from the same plan.

So a stylist may do the look and feel, but the engineer does the stuff that makes it work, and also has the job of telling the stylist when it doesn't work, so they can together go back and redesign it so it will, but still keep it withing the original vision. Because, it's the stylist job to embody the original vision of what the vessel should look like.

 

If the original poster wants to know more about what is going on with NAs in the biz right now you should listen to the broadcast on ProBoat Radio that was on Tuesday (14 feb) about Naval Architecture. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/proboatradio/2012/02/14/rob-kaidy-on-the-business-of-naval-architecture

 

Hello David, this comparison is a bit more simplified than the reality. The standards & requirements of luxury jet equipment is typically more stringent and expensive than items you would buy to improve a home. In fact, they are almost always certified with the government and have undergone some sort of flight test or detailed analysis to justify their airworthiness.

In both cases though the customer is king in the area of luxury. For aircraft, so long as the changes don't exceed performance requirements (weight, balance, CG) or safety, the customer has a lot of freedom to choose interior items for a jet. They have less freedom on the exterior as the entire outer mold line (outiside of a jet) is strictly controlled and modifications to it would violate government certifications. There are a lot of specialty suppliers so they can design/build certified custom seats, entertainment, carpet, wet bars, etc. Lots of stuff to choose from.

Keep in mind some accessories just don't belong in a plane. The aloof hot tub concept below is such an example.