Discussion: Pocket Cruising Power Catamaran Design for Recession Times...

[Seagem]

Pocket Cruising Power Catamaran Design capable of safely ranging throughout the Caribbean at low acquisition and running costs...

Firstly, for those who don't keep an eye on macroeconomics, the world is now well into a recession that will soon deepen into a long lasting depression in the US and EU: discretionary spending is dying, as Rv's sales are down 60%, cars down 35% and boats down 30% for 2008. Around one half of today's boat manufacturers, dealers and engines makers - think of Brunswick, Bombardier, etc... - will be bankrupt by the end of 2009...

Yet, these are times for radical thinking in boat design to suit the conditions and the residual market: in my home base of the Cayman Islands, I'm planning to build a Pocket Catamaran Cruiser in the 25' range, as a one-off using Duflex panels. I would recruit an unemployed experienced boat builder and then, if the prototype is successful, go into production building in China or Turkey, using the one-off as a plug...

Here is the design brief, using the best features of several existing designs as a base to work from:

This catamaran pocket cruiser should be seaworthy enough to cruise the entire Caribbean with open water passages not exceeding about 200 miles and capable of 30 knots top speed, with 22 to 25 knots cruising: the Morelli/Melvin Corsair 22 Foiler appears to be one of the best hull design out there, as it banks nicely inwards in turns due to its asymmetric hulls, has wide chines to keep the spray down and displays a very clean wake that speaks well for its efficiency. It's now built by Spartan:

haasmarine.com/Action_Shots.html

Then, there is the Prowler 950VT, which has some well thought out features, asides from what appears to be a very efficient hull: sharp entry at slow or high speeds, load carrying ability aft where the weight is usually concentrated, easy access to hulls from bridgedeck and clever location of the outboard engines, which have a clear water flow while keeping the stern platforms free. This also moves the engine weight and prop further forward, reducing potential aeration in rough seas.

950VT: http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/login/pages/images/StudyPlanProwler950VT.pdf

Build detail: http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/login/pages/images/VTmanualbuildsequence.pdf

Video 650VT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcbIk1GX4V8

I can't help but wonder whether the best features of both designs could be incorporated into one super-duper pocket power catamaran...

The ideal size is around 7.5 x 3 meters or near enough 25' x 10' - some 18" of stern platform could be additional - so that the boat can still be pulled out of the water when a hurricane is coming and towed as a wide load: 4 stainless steel chain plates where slings can be attached directly for crane lift would also be a good idea. Ideal power would be twin 4-stroke or Etec engines in the 60 to 90 hp range. Bridge deck height to be about 2' at rest or at least as high as that seen on the Prowler 950VT.

The general styling of the cabin would be in line with the Tomcat: http://www.c-dory.com/boats/tomcat_255/index.html but with the front windscreen slope inverted slightly as in this boat: http://www.tolandmarine.com/ad_index.htm to reduce solar heat penetration and glare.

There would be a large forward hatch that would incorporate part of the forward vertical trunk cabin to give full access to the anchoring gear - with anchor stowed on a small bowsprit - while standing on the forward berth and without having to walk on the narrow side decks. It's design will need careful attention to avoid leaks while driving into seas and could incorporate a separate smaller aluminium framed acrylic hatch with screen.

The main cabin would have the steering station near centre line with access to the hulls on both sides. To port, a 4 person dinette with athwartships bench seats, the front seat having a reversible back, so that the persons sitting there can either face the table or forward. The entire set up to be dimensioned so as to convert into a double berth. To starboard, a galley with sink, 2 burner stove and storage: the fridge could be located there as well, or under the pilot seat.

In the port hull, aft of the stairs is a toilet compartment with marine head, washbasin and shower behind which will be located the fuel (400 litres/100 gallons total) and water tanks (300 liters/80 gallons total) near the center of gravity. Forward of the stair access is a hanging locker and storage. In the starboard hull forward would be an athwartships queen size berth with hanging lockers and storage forward in the hull and also aft of the stairs.

The roof of the cabin would have small extensions 2' to 3" all around, except forward where it would be about 5" to 6" and aft, where it would extend over 3/4 of the cockpit area and side deck width by the main cabin would not exceed 6". Finished ceiling height in the main cabin should be around 1.95 meter or 6'6". A small arch in line with the aft bulkhead of the main cabin would carry antennas and lights. The outer deck top edge would have a small radius to make it easier to jump on the dock and a rub rail would be integrated in the top sides.

Hopefully, the engines could be recessed into the inner side of the hulls - as in the Prowler 950VT - to free up a good size stern platform for boarding or pulling up large fish. Permanent storage for a Honda 2KW gasoline generator, so that the exhaust faces aft and outside the boat would be incorporated into the aft beam, that will also have seating and fish boxes. Of course, lots of light and ventilation in a hot and humid climate is essential.

I would like to hear your comments on this project and if you're an experienced Duflex boat builder interested in relocating to the Cayman Islands, where your income will be tax free, please reply here or contact me at unikay@candw.ky

 

[sabahcat]

Have to say I hardly see how you could describe a 30knot and 25 ft cat as "Cruising" or "Recession proof"

To me in Australia, this still comes across as a cashed up bogans weekend toy.

Something that was liveaboard (so no need for a house) and could cruise at 8-10 knots at 1 litre/nm could be described as a recession proof cruiser.

 

[Seagem]

Think again...

Have to say I hardly see how you could describe a 30knot and 25 ft cat as "Cruising" or "Recession proof"

To me in Australia, this still comes across as a cashed up bogans weekend toy.

Something that was liveaboard (so no need for a house) and could cruise at 8-10 knots at 1 litre/nm could be described as a recession proof cruiser.

Think again: 22/25 knots cruising speed will be obtained with relatively small engines in the 60/90hp range - probably 75hp will do it - BUT such speed is necessary to achieve fast 200 miles open water passages using available weather windows. Besides, the boat should do around 4 miles per gallon at cruising, which is very efficient and is equivalent to your 1 liter per nautical mile benchmark...

At 8/10 knots, the passage will be 3 times longer and require a bigger boat in case the weather changes: even in difficult times, nobody wants to buy a slow boat...

Also, during times of Deflation, gas and everything else will be much cheaper...

 

[sabahcat]

Maybe its your definition of a cruising boat I have an issue with.

I expect to be able to live on, have showers, eat food at tables, use full size toilet, sleep in full sized king/queen sized beds, and travel oceans, and still achieve the 1l/nm benchmark = cruising boat

These boats are in existence now.

Compared to charging around at 22 knots in a 25 ft boat on the weekend or at best a week away roughing it on a fishing trip = weekend toy

nobody wants to buy a slow boat...

********

Yachties that have or are getting a bit old for sailing, or just chasing more comfort are after speeds similar to sailing speeds for their cruising boats, they dont want 22 knots nor could they aford to move their house around at that speed.

Sea state usually dictates the slower more economical 10 knot speed as well


Dont get me wrong, there is a place for what you propose and there are a few successful versions around already, but to call them a cruising boat..........................

 

[Seagem]

Maybe its your definition of a cruising boat I have an issue with.

I expect to be able to live on, have showers, eat food at tables, use full size toilet, sleep in full sized king/queen sized beds, and travel oceans, and still achieve the 1l/nm benchmark = cruising boat

These boats are in existence now.

Dont get me wrong, there is a place for what you propose and there are a few successful versions around already, but to call them a cruising boat..........................

If you'd taken the time to read my opening post in its entirety, you'd have realized that in my proposed Caribbean Cruiser there will be a queen size double (5' wide) and a dinette for 4 converting into a full size double (4'6" wide), a full size head with washbasin and shower fed by a 300 liters water tank, a workable galley with sink, fridge and 2 burner stove and 3 hanging lockers...

In other words, it's perfectly suitable for at least 2 and even at a pinch 4 people with a limited budget to live aboard comfortably for weeks and months at a time...

If there were such "successful versions around already" - name one or two - I would be buying one instead of going to the trouble of designing and one-off building from scratch...

 

[sabahcat]

If there were such "successful versions around already" - name one or two - I would be buying one instead of going to the trouble of designing and one-off building from scratch...

Why, you named one yourself in your first post, but you will notice that it is 5 feet longer than what you propose

Here you go

http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/login/pages/images/StudyPlanProwler950VT.pdf

Can you demonstrate how

there will be a queen size double (5' wide) and a dinette for 4 converting into a full size double (4'6" wide), a full size head with washbasin and shower fed by a 300 liters water tank, a workable galley with sink, fridge and 2 burner stove and 3 hanging lockers...

you can get that into a 25 ft vessel and still have a usable cockpit or maintain good seakeeping characteristics?

If you'd taken the time to read my opening post in its entirety,

Nup, read it again, cant see how it can be done maintaining usable cockpit and good seakeeping characteristics, but feel free to show us how

 

[Seagem]

Why, you named one yourself in your first post, but you will notice that it is 5 feet longer than what you propose

Here you go

http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/login/pages/images/StudyPlanProwler950VT.pdf

Can you demonstrate how

you can get that into a 25 ft vessel and still have a usable cockpit or maintain good seakeeping characteristics?

Nup, read it again, cant see how it can be done maintaining usable cockpit and good seakeeping characteristics, but feel free to show us how

Sorry, but I have better things to do than entertain an obvious Forum Troll...

 

[sabahcat]

Getting back to recession proof boats, I still maintain that a vessel that can be lived on permanently and comfortably (negating the need for a house or car), with 1l/nm or better is more recession proof than a boat that requires BOTH a house and a car

This is what I am in the process of doing now, and it will allow me to move comfortably in regions where the exchange rate is more favourable, meaning more fuel, food etc for each $ spent.

This is the TRUE definition of recession proof cruiser IMHO

 

[sabahcat]

Sorry, but I have better things to do than entertain an obvious Forum Troll...

Now now Mr 4 poster, I have not called you troll (or a delusional spruiker)

As I said, by all means show your concept and how it can be done with comfort and seakeeping making it a cruiser, until then, I say it is an unlikely concept.

It is up to you to prove me wrong,

I should not just blindly accept

 

[PAR]

I've found Seagem's outlook on the current economy, considerably over stated, certainly not based in facts nor any accurate historical model. And the concept of a recession proof yacht a ridiculous proposition.

The facts are the world in general is in recession, and has been for several months. In the USA it started about a year ago.

Typical recessions in this country last about a year, before signs of recovery rear up. World wide recovery lags behind with about an 18 month average, partly because the USA economy has to recover first and pave the way for the rest of the markets. Like it or not, it's quite simply the reality of the world markets currently.

Yachts, by their very nature are luxury items. Commodities to be bought, sold and enjoyed by those who can afford them. Long gone are the days when you could build a Sea Bird on the beach and sail it way, with nothing in your pocket to the south seas and live happily forever. Ideas of such (even if it is just coastal cruising) are fantasy for fiction writers. Just finding economical mooring space is currently testy in many parts of the world, let alone this country. The whole idea of a recession proof anything is just unrivaled exuberance over something they know little of.

I've lived aboard many vessels, a few of my design and build. Never has it been cheaper then land based accommodations, nor easier. More enjoyable, certainly, unaffected by economic trends, hardly. Few things are stable through economic down turns. Health care is one industry that isn't as affected, but too feels a pinch.

The idea of a little cat cruiser has merit, but again, this is a yacht and discretionary finds are being horded at the moment, so unless you have the pockets to survive this economic bump in the road, then you're just pissing up a rope.

As for the major manufactures going belly up by year's end, don't hold your breath. They've seen the writing on the wall, have survived previous storms and are reasonably well divested, to absorb some of their questionable acquisitions.

By spring or early summer the USA housing market will begin to show signs of life again. This will bring more confidence to the markets and consumer spending will rise. This will feed much needed cash into the industries and the recovery will be on. The rest of the world will see recovery by the end of the year, as in previous events, following the US lead.

There will still be major economic issues to contend with, but we've all known this for some months. By the time 2010 gets here, the Dow will be back over 10,000 and the greedy will be getting richer again.

Seagem, I think you'll find that around here, as in most other things and places in life, you need to earn respect and develop reputation. A post in a discussion forum is only as useful as the poster's perceived worth. If you've fostered no value, then you can't possibly expect much, though there is a potential for knowledge. In other words, you know what you have in mind, but haven't shown how you plan to accomplish it in such a small platform. Valid questions have been raised, but instead of replying, possibly showing simple sketches, you've elected to retort. Again, respect and reputation is earned. Clearly your age and/or experience is showing (I'm assuming). Part of any "sales package" is the ability to get across concepts, ideas and value, in such a way as to excite a prospective client or investor. Judging by your persuasion skills, I'd say you need to hire a marketing staff at the very least.

 

[Seagem]

I've found Seagem's outlook on the current economy, considerably over stated, certainly not based in facts nor any accurate historical model. And the concept of a recession proof yacht a ridiculous proposition.

The facts are the world in general is in recession, and has been for several months. In the USA it started about a year ago.

Typical recessions in this country last about a year, before signs of recovery rear up. World wide recovery lags behind with about an 18 month average, partly because the USA economy has to recover first and pave the way for the rest of the markets. Like it or not, it's quite simply the reality of the world markets currently.

Yachts, by their very nature are luxury items. Commodities to be bought, sold and enjoyed by those who can afford them. Long gone are the days when you could build a Sea Bird on the beach and sail it way, with nothing in your pocket to the south seas and live happily forever. Ideas of such (even if it is just coastal cruising) are fantasy for fiction writers. Just finding economical mooring space is currently testy in many parts of the world, let alone this country. The whole idea of a recession proof anything is just unrivaled exuberance over something they know little of.

I've lived aboard many vessels, a few of my design and build. Never has it been cheaper then land based accommodations, nor easier. More enjoyable, certainly, unaffected by economic trends, hardly. Few things are stable through economic down turns. Health care is one industry that isn't as affected, but too feels a pinch.

The idea of a little cat cruiser has merit, but again, this is a yacht and discretionary finds are being horded at the moment, so unless you have the pockets to survive this economic bump in the road, then you're just pissing up a rope.

As for the major manufactures going belly up by year's end, don't hold your breath. They've seen the writing on the wall, have survived previous storms and are reasonably well divested, to absorb some of their questionable acquisitions.

By spring or early summer the USA housing market will begin to show signs of life again. This will bring more confidence to the markets and consumer spending will rise. This will feed much needed cash into the industries and the recovery will be on. The rest of the world will see recovery by the end of the year, as in previous events, following the US lead.

There will still be major economic issues to contend with, but we've all known this for some months. By the time 2010 gets here, the Dow will be back over 10,000 and the greedy will be getting richer again.

Seagem, I think you'll find that around here, as in most other things and places in life, you need to earn respect and develop reputation. A post in a discussion forum is only as useful as the poster's perceived worth. If you've fostered no value, then you can't possibly expect much, though there is a potential for knowledge. In other words, you know what you have in mind, but haven't shown how you plan to accomplish it in such a small platform. Valid questions have been raised, but instead of replying, possibly showing simple sketches, you've elected to retort. Again, respect and reputation is earned. Clearly your age and/or experience is showing (I'm assuming). Part of any "sales package" is the ability to get across concepts, ideas and value, in such a way as to excite a prospective client or investor. Judging by your persuasion skills, I'd say you need to hire a marketing staff at the very least.

I happen to be an investor who retired at 31 years of age after starting from scratch and I spend a great deal of time buying - actually, mostly selling short - stocks, options and futures. Your knowledge of current macro-economics is seriously wanting and I suggest you read/watch the following link to bring yourself up to speed...

One of the clearest economic forecasting minds is 'Mish' and it's worth following his daily blog entries: he expects the US housing market not to bottom until 2012 and to remain flat for 5 years afterwards...

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/01/feds-yellen-supports-experimental.html

Denninger is also right on the ball....

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

iTulip is a good Website to keep in mind, due to the high level of contributions...

http://itulip.com/

...and for those who like videos, it's hard to ignore Peter Schiff and Gerald Celente...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZJe...77C5F338B&index=4&playnext=5&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg0oOAivhG4&feature=PlayList&p=DB352C9E8B0E2E7B&index=1

Sorry to disabuse you, but I have extensive cruising and ocean crossing experience on my own monohulls and multihulls, as I spent 7.5 years cruising full time after I retired. In addition, I own the design and moulds of an offshore 46' power catamaran, which is going to gather dust in Florida, as the market for such discretionary items has now collapsed for all intent and purposes...

However, I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else and I'm not going to entertain trolls: if I don't get any useful input on my original post, no big deal: I'll have just wasted a couple hours of my time...

 

[sabahcat]

I happen to be an investor who retired at 31 years of age after starting from scratch and I spend a great deal of time buying - actually, mostly selling short - stocks, options and futures. Your knowledge of current macro-economics is seriously wanting and I suggest you read/watch the following link to bring yourself up to speed...

Ah yes, the 30 year old experts making money during a period when my pet rock could have had a result.

But hey, congratulations on you're achievements

One of the clearest economic forecasting minds is 'Mish' and it's worth following his daily blog entries: he expects the US housing market not to bottom until 2012 and to remain flat for 5 years afterwards...

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/01/feds-yellen-supports-experimental.html

Denninger is also right on the ball....

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

iTulip is a good Website to keep in mind, due to the high level of contributions...

http://itulip.com/

...and for those who like videos, it's hard to ignore Peter Schiff and Gerald Celente...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZJe...77C5F338B&index=4&playnext=5&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg0oOAivhG4&feature=PlayList&p=DB352C9E8B0E2E7B&index=1

Sorry to disabuse you, but I have extensive cruising and ocean crossing experience on my own monohulls and multihulls, as I spent 7.5 years cruising full time after I retired. In addition, I own the design and moulds of an offshore 46' power catamaran, which is going to gather dust in Florida, as the market for such discretionary items has now collapsed for all intent and purposes...

However, I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else and I'm not going to entertain trolls: if I don't get any useful input on my original post, no big deal: I'll have just wasted a couple hours of my time...

LOL, your on the wrong forum here mate, maybe this one is more your speed
http://forum.globalhousepricecrash.com/index.php?act=idx

As far as thinking I am a troll, a bit of history from me is that I have been in the boatbuilding game since 1982 and am a boatbuilder by trade.


I am well versed in composite and alloy construction and have been involved in and am building multihulls for 17 of those years, and funnily enough would be interested in tax free money, so It would appear I be just the guy you are trying to attract for the job.

I am currently putting MY money where my mouth is and am building a low speed low powered, long waterline length catamaran for myself as a RECESSION PROOF CRUISER, after 30 years of cruising and observation, and it will have everything you propose and not much more on much longer hulls to be efficient.


So, how about showing us this boat you have so we can comment, unless of course you just came here to stir the pot

 

[PAR]

What an arrogant loser. I thought I was good retiring at 50, but hell, I guess I'm only half of this clown.

This guy doesn't have a boat, very likely has never lived for very long on one, nor is it likely that he's retired at the tender age his naive ranting suggest. Anyone who's gone through the full design process, is not only proud, but happy to offer profiles, accommodations, general specs, etc. Living and trusting a so called businessman in the Caymans, now there's an oxymoron. Between the hedge fund operators, huge money laundering operations and the absurdly corrupt politicians and bankers, why wouldn't anyone what to do business there.

Look you're the "investor", put up or shut up. Personally, I think you're a clueless kid that's probably not out off mommy's house yet, but you have big dreams, derived from not having to do anything in life yet, let alone pay for it.

 

[Manie B]

Gents back to the boat

anything above 10 knots is not nice - please believe me

here are pics of my friends boat that is at the Vaaldam

30 ft x 14 ft motor cat driven by 2x 50hp E-tec

This boat is simply fantastic and gets used just about EVERY weekend for the past 3 years, the Evinrude motors are bulletproof and very very light on fuel. We usually cruise for up to 8 hours at 10 to 12 knots

The boat is fully capable of 30 knots WOT but we cruise at 2000 rpm = 10 knots. You simply cant travel at high speeds without all the food and booze and furniture and windows and people and old farts and false teeth and toilet paper and glasses and cd player SHAKING IT SELF TO SHREDS

When i read that folks want to "travel / cruise" at 20 / 30 knots i know that your boating experience is at best limited if at all

One thing is for sure
the age of the economical motor cat is here
and this is one of them
two people can definately live on it

 

[masalai]

I support your view Manie - my choice is a little bigger and the range is for "semi-sheltered" (sometimes definately NOT) waters inside the Great Barrier Reef - a Bob Oram 39'C motor-sailor variation that will happily cruise 6 to 8 knots and in favourable conditions lots more than that - but then comfort suffers..... and I do not like my drinks shaken, or, the joy of listening to Vivaldi etc distorted by other (engine) noises....