Discussion- Multi-purpose Onboard Computers

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by TerryKing, Sep 24, 2007.

  1. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 595
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 289
    Location: Topsham, Vermont

    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Protocols, Protocols :)

    Matt, how true! In the spirit of discussion, let me add some thoughts:

    CANbus - if I recall correctly, NMEA-2000 interfaces are CANbus based?
    ** Yes, and longer-run I'd like to learn more about it. I believe NMEA2000 and other CAN equipment can coexist on the same bus.

    USB ... relatively complex to program for
    ** Yes, but cheap modules that send serial over USB and drivers that create virtual serial ports under WIN-XP make it a lot easier to use. And there are several NMEA to USB combiners available.

    RS232 /RS485 (industrial-grade serial) - Really robust, still pretty cheap and easy to code, reliable signal on long cables, but limited bandwidth - perhaps a good choice for sensor interfaces, etc. that only transmit strings/arrays of numbers?
    ** This is where NMEA0183 comes in, and I believe it is the best DIY choice at the moment.

    Ethernet - Cheap, fast, widely supported, but software side somewhat more complex than simpler peripheral busses (in boats, Furuno NavNet is Ethernet-based if I recall correctly)
    ** Interesting possibility: Cheap routers/switches with WiFi, and any reasonable cable length make Ethernet interesting. Built-in to most system boards. AND there are devices and approaches that send NMEA over Ethernet! Gotta learn more about that...

    ...let's continue figuring this stuff out...

    Right now I'm leaning towards NMEA0183 for all onboard monitoring and control, thru NMEA combiners and USB, like an incoming tree. Separate USB or serial in for the GPS.
     
  2. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 3,486
    Likes: 97, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 1148
    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    not me, not really, i still have a HF GMSDS?, epirb and radar licence but dont use most of it anymore. my transas navsoft is from '95. i used old nmea RS 232 serial ports on CIA cards and remember magallan had te take a gps batch back couse it seemed i was the first to discover there was no signal on the out to the pc. later it proved a good 12 channel gps till it flew away

    most people use multiple systems with individual screens on top of the dash but i too was after that single unified system. nowadays i just look at a f.e. still there el gyrocompas wondering what it exactly did and if i'll ever use it again

    radar overlay in transas was only possible in the higher versions and could be implemented in various way's. in a ARPA swith mode as classic radius radar doing all sorts of things but also over a seachart, positioning both charts in a desired compas angle. things like that and showing targets in a small circle with various colored speed vectors and TCPA alarms, forgetting now how it all worked but it did for a while

    modern wireless systems sound atractive to me but things keep changing and in a quik search i cant even find transas or tsunami anymore but cars???
    http://www.transasnautic.com/
    http://www.transasnavigator.com/se/navigator/
    http://www.internationalpilots.org/haberdetay.asp?kategori_no=31&id=48
    a little deeper serach should provide some more on the subject though and maybe i'll attend the mets boat equipment show here next month and check up on this stuff
     
  3. Man Overboard
    Joined: Oct 2006
    Posts: 246
    Likes: 13, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 129
    Location: Wisconsin

    Man Overboard Tom Fugate

    Solid state hard drives are now becoming available. They are more reliable, and take much less energy than a standard hard drive. A solid state drive is a far better choice for the operating system and installed programs in my opinion. A standard hard drive makes since for back up and mass storage; it would sit idle most of the time, and is much less susceptible to damage when the disks are not spinning.

    There is a blurb about these new drives here:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/17/scitech/pcanswer/main3064875.shtml

    Here is an informative article at Toms Hardware:
    http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/08/13/flash_based_hard_drives_cometh/

    and a related link:
    http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34065/135/
     
  4. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 4,127
    Likes: 149, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2043
    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    Liebermann has been using solid state hard drives for years (the PuRAM solid state hard drive), but their machines are rare and priced way out of most people's reach. They use them because of transfer speed, but the near-zero risk of shock damage is a good enough reason in my books to favour solid-state drives on board the boat.
    Thus most of the connections to the PC itself are via USB which, left as the manufacturers provide it, is to a large degree self-troubleshooting. I like the idea of using simpler, slower and easier to implement protocols for the individual devices, joined by standard mass-produced node/conversion units that should be pretty reliable.
    (btw, if I see "through" spelled as "thru" again I am going to flip. I see this in contract documents sometimes. We don't pay by character here like the guys printing fast-food signs do! ;))
     
  5. Man Overboard
    Joined: Oct 2006
    Posts: 246
    Likes: 13, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 129
    Location: Wisconsin

    Man Overboard Tom Fugate

    Yes, I was not completely clear; solid state hard drives have been around for quite some time, but there is a push to make them available for pc's, primarily targeting notebooks. They have impressive read speeds, but for now, the write speeds are actually slower than a poor preforming standard drive. Not a huge issue for a yacht I don't think the advantages are substantial.

    Liebermanns claims about the PuRam hard drive are just outlandish. Are they really a company that is here to stay? I think not, but time will tell.
     
  6. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 4,127
    Likes: 149, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2043
    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    Liebermann has been around for a while and the company has already gone under and restructured itself at least once. They do push the state of the art in desktop / notebook technology, but at prices which nobody can really afford.
     
  7. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 595
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 289
    Location: Topsham, Vermont

    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    What Drives (Us?)

    My Mother the English teacher would agree. Strongly.
    My Wife, the Librarian, would probably chime in..
    My Dad, the Radio Engineer would say," we ben thru this before es so wat? cul 73 dad"

    ...I'll look more at the SS drives. But someone ? Portager? Knottybouyz? ?(Sorry, please drop in! )? Talked a while back about shock-mounting a 2.5" drive. With those drives intended for hard-knocks notebook use, and quite low power, and going to sleep when not accessed for 5 minutes or so, I'm thinking they may be a good choice..
     
  8. DanishBagger
    Joined: Feb 2006
    Posts: 1,540
    Likes: 46, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 523
    Location: Denmark

    DanishBagger Never Again

    Sandisk and Samsung make some impressive SSD's, but (and here I go again about my audio-recorder), my portable recorder has the option to record to both CF and the internal HDD, which is shockmounted. In real life, you would have to knock (as in banging it against something solid such as the back seat of motorcycle running at high speed over a rather rough road) in order to make the hdd skip.
    Now, it's a 2,5" HDD, but I would thank that a 1.8" - the sort used in iPods - would be even better, assuming it is shock mounted well enough. The reason I assume this is because of what I call the "gyroscopical effect" (I have no idea if that is the "right" term or not, but it will have to suffice): The bigger platter, the more mass will have to change direction, and vice versa.

    If you guys are interested, I would be able to get hold of a digital camera and open the recorder, so you could see how simple the set-up is in reality (small soft rubber washers and foam).

    Also, has anyone thought about using/rebeuidling a PDA/Pocket PC with Windows Mobile, Palm's software or Linux? Those don't use much power, but I guess it depends what one wants to use it for.

    Some PPC's are now coming out with usb-on-the-go (or some such name), which more or less means that it can be used, at USB2.0-speeds as a host-device.

    This one doesn't have usb-2.0 speeds as a host-device, but it except for speeds, which are at 1.1-speeds, it follows the 2.0-protocol.

    http://www.socketmobile.com/products/handheld-computer/somo-650/

    (thought you guys could check out the motherboard etc.).

    Andre

    Edit: Well, I just found this link, which looks somewhat useful to me:

    http://www.socketmobile.com/products/oem/
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2007
  9. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 4,127
    Likes: 149, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2043
    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    Re: shock-mounted HDDs
    I'm using a Lenovo T-series laptop at work right now that has some degree of shock-mounting on the drive, but also has a gadget that lifts the drive head off the platter within a couple milliseconds of detecting the beginning of a shock, to prevent physical disk damage. It is rather sensitive, but can still be used without much trouble in the back of a bouncy car on bad Ontario roads. Supposedly it's meant to protect the data on the disk in case you drop the machine. Then again, laptop drives are often rated to operate under 10 g or stronger shocks, far more than you'll get in most boats.
     
  10. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 595
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 289
    Location: Topsham, Vermont

    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Shocks and Mounting

    In a larger boat, the overall G forces are damped by the sheer mass of the boat. In a light high-speed boat a good slam seems like it might have multi-G forces. Anyone have data on this??

    Seems a decently shock mounted system with a 2.5" or smaller laptop drive would be fine.

    Hailing Portager: You talked about this a while ago here (#14)
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14509&page=2&highlight=shock mount

    [A photo example below of one type...]

    Can you show us more of what you've done?? Thanks!

    ((And what's the RIGHT way to point to a specific post in another thread???))
     

    Attached Files:

  11. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 595
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 289
    Location: Topsham, Vermont

    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Function Diagram: Input-process-output

    *** STILL MESSING WITH FORMATTING ***
    OK! That worked! That's a Visio diagram saved as .JPG. Phew!

    OK, I'm trying to get a handle on all the flying parts of this :cool:

    I'm going to try to take this in two steps: (1) What FUNCTIONS there might be in a computer-based onboard integrated system, and (2) One possible way of approaching DOING it..

    There are many different ways of doing any system, and many different components that could be used. This part is ONLY what FUNCTIONS I've picked up so far from these discussions, reading, looking at other systems etc.

    There are four sections, showing things that involve (1) Humans, (2) NAV, (3) Onboard SYSTEMS, and (4) Communications.

    The follow-on part will be my take on "How I would do it, knowing what I know about so far". I expect and hope there will be several opinions on this!

    So, to start, this try, based on the INPUT-PROCESS-OUTPUT model that is often used. The process part is software, much of which does not yet exist, although good low-cost NAV software like OziExplorer, Fugawi etc are a great start on that part. So, here goes:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2007
  12. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 595
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 289
    Location: Topsham, Vermont

    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Computer System Capabilities

    Next: Here's the beginning of my "How I would do it based on what I think I know So Far"...

    I am going to prototype a system over the next 2 or 3 months, and I have a PC system board in hand here that looks good. So below is a diagram of what capabilities and interfaces are available on this type of mini PC board. Next I'm working on a diagram of what shipboard devices connect to this computer and what software could be used. I'm aiming at a low-cost DIY system with full features. Whatever THAT is.... This system board with processor is about $235 US, Plus memory,Power, etc. etc, etc...

    So, this is JUST the computer system board itself, not a system yet....

    Oh, NOTE: The USB and COM Interfaces are really Bi-Directional Inputs AND Outputs...

    [​IMG]
     
  13. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 595
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 289
    Location: Topsham, Vermont

    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Proposed Multi-Purpose Onboard Computer System Diagram

    OK, here's what I've got so far:
    -- IF we take the proposed functions list below, AND
    -- IF we try to implement ALL of them (few would do that!) with a computer system similar to the last post..
    THEN I see something like this diagram below. (PDF also attached) NOTE: Discussion of the parts of this is below the diagram... Please comment, suggest, critique!

    [​IMG]

    My Comments: (Under Construction! )

    **General Mechanical Comments:**

    - I see this small PC system shockmounted in a small aluminum box, possibly one of those gasketed briefcase-like metal boxes used for shipboard camera equipment, mounted inside / behind the dashboard in a protected location.. Fanless, possibly with heat-pipe cooling assist. 2.5" Hard Drive shockmounted inside. DVD drive in a nearby cabin location in a separate small gasketed box, sealed SATA data cable.

    - I see the helm/cockpit position having everything behind one or two clear Lexan panels, sealed to the dashboard/mounting, able to take a "pail of seawater". LCD Display and large (read: big, clunky, hard to miss in rough weather) touch panel and display panel are behind Lexan. Maybe a waterproof Mouse/Joystick at the helm. Maybe a waterproof keyboard to pull out when not underway.

    BUT All That is a separate discussion!

    OK, here's what I'm thinking about the many different parts of this:

    (Got back to this...) NOTE: All the stuff on the left side is mostly INPUTS and SENSORS, and the right side is mostly OUTPUTS and ACTUATORS.

    **Human Inputs**
    -Touch Panel: I want permanent buttons and switches at the helm for important functions. I do not think it's workable to use a mouse/keyboard/trackball while underway, certainly not in Weather. I want large, obviously located and labeled buttons that quickly give me the displays of information I need, and control important onboard systems. I want Sea Water-Proof capacitive sensing switches behind a Lexan panel that I can hit reliably with one hand on the wheel in crappy weather.

    - Mouse: For non-critical things at the helm under good conditions I want a workable "Mouse-Like" device that's Sea-Water-Proof. There are waterproof fixed 'Mice' for industrial applications. Also a waterproof touch-pad is used in some of these applications. And a capacitive touch-array is possible.

    - Keyboard: (Ugh! In most cases...) At anchor, I'd like to be able to pull out a waterproof keyboard and use it effectively at the helm. Coolest seen so far: Laser-projected keyboard on flat dashboard section, Infrared sensors see the fingers. Maybe.

    **NAV INPUTS** (The stuff that ends up overlaid on the main NAV display)
    - GPS : conventional GPS NMEA sentences via Serial or USB
    - Depth Sounder: Same. Maybe multiplexed with the GPS. Separate these 2 from all other NMEA/USB stuff.
    - AIS from VHF receiver to audio for ShipPlotter, or NMEA from dedicated receiver.

    ? Video Imager: Possibly effective in Docking, shallow-water observation, night-vision
    ? Accelerometer: Now good low-cost available. Monitor and log ship attitude, movements, slam/wave impacts.


    **ONBOARD SYSTEMS INPUTS** (I see this as a variety of NMEA0183 sensors etc. now. MAYBE NMEA2000/CAN someday. Nobody would do ALL this stuff. Probably)

    - Engine Monitors: Commercial or DIY box that senses engine variables:
    Temperatures: (inlet,block,outlet, exhaust riser, turbo, oil, drive system, alternator.
    Pressures: Oil, Fuel, Coolant, Turbo, Hydraulic pump.
    Electrical: (Alternator current, voltage, EFI supply voltage)
    Vibration: Engine, Drive system

    - Power Monitors: Commercial or DIY box that senses AC and DC Power systems
    Voltages and Currents: Batteries, DC Alternator / Generator outputs, Wind/Solar system outputs
    Voltages and Currents: AC power systems, Shore power, Generators, Inverters. Load current from onboard devices or circuits
    Status: Loads which are using power. Circuits whose overcurrent protection has tripped. Circuits that are off/disabled.

    - Consumables/Tanks:
    Fluid levels: Fuel tanks, fresh water tanks, gray and black water tanks.

    -Heat/Cool Monitor:
    Status of cooling or heating devices
    Temperatures: cabin/crew/engine room/helm/Refrigerators/Freezers

    -Weather Instruments
    Wind Direction and Velocity
    Barometric Pressure
    Rain Detector
    Snow Depth (For those wintering-over at Bar Harbor)

    - Environmental Monitor:
    Air temperature: Outdoor, Cabin/Crew areas, Engine Room,helm
    Water Temperature: Sea water, fresh water, hot water
    Lightning Detector

    -Bilge/Pumps Monitor:
    Each Bilge Area: Water level, Pump Running Status, Pump Current

    -Fire/Gases Monitor:
    Detect explosive gases, combustion products, CO, fuel vapors, solvents in Engine Room areas and bilges.
    Detect Gases, CO, combustion products in crew areas
    Detect overtemperatures in various areas (may be combined with Environmental)

    **COMMUNICATIONS** (Many of these are bi-directional: both Inputs and Outputs)
    - HF-SSB RADIO/TNC: Long Distance short-wave (3-30 Mhz) communications. A Terminal Node Controller is a type of Modem and Packet Radio Protocol Controller used to send and receive messages, WeatherFAX, etc.

    -NETWORKS:
    - WiFi networks connect to the Internet, at relatively short range at Marina, Anchor, or a little offshore.
    - Satellite networks connect to the Internet via satellite, from (almost) anywhere.
    - Other Onboard Computers can be part of the same network, share data, share Internet etc.

    *****( OUTPUT SIDE )*****

    ** HUMAN OUTPUTS **

    - Wide LCD Display:

    -- NAV: The main information displayed from the NAV Systems. Typically a moving-chart display driven by GPS, also showing defined Waypoints, track or path the boat has taken, route information (Planned - Waypoint to Waypoint). Other information may also be overlaid on this display such as Depth, and AIS (Automatic Identification System) data showing other ships in the area and their courses and speeds. And maybe real Radar (But I don't know much about that).

    -- ONBOARD SYSTEMS: Display current operational values from monitoring systems, especially Engines, Onboard power systems. Switchable options to view less-critical information like weather, environmental etc. Also can display history data from sensors, like engine temperatures and pressures etc. These can be presented as a graph.

    -- COMMUNICATIONS: Possibly show incoming email, Weather alerts, etc.

    - STATUS LIGHTS / MIMIC PANEL: Dedicated displays separate from the LCD display. Show important underway status, alert to problems. Many of the status lights may be arranged in a pictorial layout that 'Mimics' the layout of the boat. Example: Bilge pumps shown in their onboard locations. Such panels are probably integrated with the associated touch switches for human input.

    - AUDIBLE ALARMS: The system will activate loud audible alarms for various systems. Examples: Low Oil Pressure, Turbo Overtemperature, bilge level above set point, battery voltage low, alternator current high, etc.

    ** NAV OUTPUTS **
    - Autopilot steering control


    (Under Construction, as usual...)

    ** ONBOARD SYSTEMS CONTROL OUTPUTS **

    ** CABIN HDTV DISPLAY
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  14. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 595
    Likes: 25, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 289
    Location: Topsham, Vermont

    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    On-Screen Gauges

    One of many unsolved questions: How do we display all those engine parameters and stuff on the LCD screen? I dug through a lot of software possibilities, and $400 packages until I found this. Why didn't I think of this? We're running a PC. We're running a Browser, like Firefox, etc. with lots of capabilities, free. We can get the free Flash player with man-years of work on graphics. So: Do It in XML.

    Try this: http://terryking.us/boatbuilding/gauges/Run.html

    OK, it's not real data. (My boat only goes 62 MPH :D ) But I bet it can work, at low cost.

    Any XML weenies out there???
     

  15. SAE140

    SAE140 Guest


    For when the sea gets lumpy:
    If you've got a fair amount of ram on-board - why not set-up a large ram-drive (something I used to do with an old floppy-based cp/m machine, and again with a 286 - remember those ?) and then boot the system into the ram-disk from a CF memory card. That way, you're fully solid-state and 'bouncing around'-proof.

    If you need to save something - simply write the data to a second CF card - there are lots of 2-card IDE adapters on eBay, couple of quid each. (Or even use one of those USB memory stick thingies - dunno much about 'em though) Then - when the sea state permits - you can simply copy across the data to your hard drive/cd-writer after extracting them from their cotton-wool anti-G boxes, or whatever steps you've taken to protect 'em from the harsh realities of life.

    The trick with this setup is to NEVER write to the 'system' CF card as these cards have a limited write capacity, which you'd soon exceed if it was enabled permanently as a solid state hard drive, as Windows is forever writing stuff onto the HDD. Pity they don't come with a floppy-disk style 'read-only' facility - but they don't - so you need to work around this somehow. You could even put some kind of hardware switch in the CF Card's /write line if you're as untrusting of Windows as I am.

    Colin
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.