disabled talk??

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by yachtyakka, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. yachtyakka
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    yachtyakka Junior Member

    greetings folks,

    no dought you are aware of the Artemis 20.

    The Artemis 20 is a 20ft (6m) carbon fibre performance racing keelboat, with America’s Cup characteristics, specifically designed to be sailed by both able and disabled sailors alike. The philosophy stems from the importance of accessibility, the idea of breaking down barriers and creating fun, fast and functional ways for getting more people on the water and bringing them together, removing the ‘us and them’ factor.

    The Artemis 20 was designed by Rogers Yacht Design under commission by Chichester based Vizual Marine.

    Vizual Marine are the manufacturers of the Artemis 20 and oversee every aspect of the boat builds.

    For Hilary’s adapted Artemis 20, Vizual Marine have spent considerable effort specifically adapting certain aspects of her boat to work in conjunction with what is needed with Hilary’s round Britain sip and puff specification.

    Hilary aims to become the 1st disabled woman to sail solo around Britain. She was forced to postpone her sail last year as she and the team were hit with the worst weather on record, but is determined to complete the sail this year.

    Hilary now 36, is quadriplegic and lives near Canterbury with her husband and chocolate labrador Lottie. Hilary has battled with her worsening medical condition for over half her life.

    Tempted in her darkest moments to end her pain and suffering, an introduction to sailing in 2003 provided a fresh impetus and transformed life for Hilary. In 2005, Hilary Lister made history by becoming the first ever quadriplegic to sail solo across the English Channel.

    "You have a freedom on water you don't have anywhere, well I don't. It's hard to explain what it's like being stuck in a wheelchair. Here I'm the boss. As well as steering, I can chose to sail flat, or go faster. It's wonderful to have choice again."

    I think its great that the trickle down from the amount of money spent on our sport can help people like Hilary can enjoy the spirit of sailing that many of us take for granted. a couple of days ago I had the chance to chat with her about her challenge and the feeling she has when sailing.

    click this link to view-you may need to join facebook to view.

    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=685815485#/video/video.php?v=1078376157963

    What other designs are been designed/modified for disabled sailing? I would like to build a yachtyakka to promote these yachts, and what better place to ask such a question than here?

    http://yachtyakka.co.nz/
     

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    Last edited: May 1, 2009
  2. Daniel Noyes
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Daniel Noyes Junior Member

  3. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    From a different perspective

    Rather than focusing exclusively on what has been modified for disabled sailors, perhaps it may be worthwhile to discuss design and engineering requirements for disabled sailors - "aiming" before "firing" as it were.

    I find "duct tape and bailer twine" modifications of existing designs generally horrible, and worse when people who have no idea about engineering principles and standards present their ideas that are unsafe and dangerous.

    Mobility challenged folks demand a higher standard of safety from designers - when things go wrong, they do not have the same level of failure recovery and compensation available to them. Designing systems for hospitals is very different than designing consumer equipment where lives are not in the balance. The same principles hold true with disabled sailing - a life is in the balance, and appropriate safeguards must be in place.

    When I sail in my performance dinghy, I expect capsize and swimming every time I go out - and I'm pleased if I make it back to the dock without a swim. My expectation of safety is very low - by choice. Disabled sailors are often adrenaline seekers with a taste for living on the edge - and many push performance quite hard. They do not however expect swimming and capsize. Their lifestyle to a great degree is protected by higher standards, and they tend to push hard, knowing those standards surround them. They do not expect equipment to fail, and if it does fail, they expect it to fail safely.

    Fail-safe design is an important concept - we all know things fail, but how they fail is critical. Designing things for "life in the balance" situations forces the designer to consider failures and plan for things failing without compromising the life or lives involved.

    This was my issue with the "Trapwing" design being touted in the aforementioned thread. Operator safety depended on perfect operation of a complex component that required batteries, electronics, control systems and motion - while this complex component provided righting moment and buoyancy at the same time. Failure of the device in any way could put the operator's life in jeopardy. There were just too many ways in which a minor failure could add up to a major catastrophe.

    As an engineer, you have to think through every possible failure scenario and mode - "what happens if" testing. This is a very different perspective - and almost diametrically opposed to designing for high performance.

    When you look at current options for mobility challenged folks - like the Martin 16 and Skud, you immediately can see a lot of failure prediction analysis was done before anyone sailed the boat.

    I hope this stimulates more discussion about mobility challenged applications.

    --
    Bill
     
  4. yachtyakka
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    yachtyakka Junior Member

    When I posted the thread I only knew of Hilary and some of the local 2.4's. As with most things in life there is a lot happening under to radar, I have discovered there are many who love to sail and have modified an existing boat to fill their desire. Following Hilary and talking to her the other night has opened my eyes to all kinds of options and challenges faced by the less mobile who just want to go for a yacht. I have updated my story, see below and tonight I'm adding more adventures of disabled sailing.

    http://yachtyakka.co.nz/2009/04/disabled-sailing/

    The Skud is another yacht designed as a sit in boat however as you have said Bill craft like the Trapwing is knot good enough when the going gets tuff and the safety of the crew needs to upper most. no point designing a craft that can trap the crew and drown them. Have a look at the video of Geoff Holt when setting out in a tri to sail around Britian, it flipped him out when a wave from a fizz boat overpowered him. A planning sit-in like Doug has suggested for disabled people like Hilary is dreamland and simply knot on the same page. The Artemis 20 I think is on the right track, ample performance yet stable. The 2.4 is a bit small and a bit lacking in any decent freeboard to cope with ant sizeable chop. and the odd greeny over the bows.

    This is a design forum, perhaps there is a bright idea or 2 here to produce a yacht with the right features that will give more people the trust to enjoy the pleasure of a sail.

    Please Doug, nothing hairbrain. KISS
     

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  5. yachtyakka
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    yachtyakka Junior Member

    Thanks Doug for your private message. As always your comments are...interesting. My post was to try and focus on "A" boat for disabled yachting, knot one size fits all. Just as a 2.4 is a solo yacht, knot a 2 person yacht, just as a volvo 70 is a fully crewed yacht knot a solo yacht, just as a open 60 is a solo yacht, knot a fully crewed yacht, just as a 12ft skiff is a 2 person yacht, knot a solo yacht. sure a yacht like the Artemis can be both.

    KISS

    Is there a yacht lurking around just for disabled yachting? If there is knot..Why knot?

    Just asking the question.

    Your comments about a planning yacht for disabled are also wide of the mark...IMHO

    Your focus seems to be on fast foiling yachts for everybody. knot everybody wants or needs to sail at 20 plus knots just as everybody does knot want to drive the nascar circut.
     
  6. Daniel Noyes
    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Location: North Shore, Massachusetts

    Daniel Noyes Junior Member

    As you all have mentioned adaptive sailing spans a wide range, I was speaking recently with a amputee about the subject and he sails a Laser, class legal.
    He also said that people generally don't realize how small the adaptive sailing scene is, it is not a big market place

    I think the idea of a handicapped sailboat is not appealing to the general sailing comunity, it's not a boat they want to run out and buy, but the idea of a minature 12M. yacht is super cool, and oh by the way it is completely handicap acessiable!

    That is why I proposed a boat based on the Open 60 ocean racers, the big boats are also required to be self righting. I cant think of another class that is cooler (WOW factor) or better suited to the task.

    The real challenge for Adaptive sailors is finances, many are living on fixed or limited incomes. The gent I spoke with said the most striking challenge facing Adaptive sailing is the difference between haves and have-not's
    Dan
    http://dansdories.googlepages.com
     
  7. yachtyakka
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    yachtyakka Junior Member

    whoops forgot the smilely

    :0))
     
  8. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Interesting how someone supposedly not registered for the site is able to send a PM. What user name sent you the PM as Doug Lord?
     
  9. yachtyakka
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    yachtyakka Junior Member

    Doug Lord has my e-mail. He and I have exchange ideas before and I wanted comment from all corners of the mind, He tends to rant on a bit, which is fine but I feel that he also tends to attack other thoughts, perhaps its just his way and he really is just having issues with public posting - and then perhaps knot.
     
  10. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Coincidentally, this was posted just yesterday at Sailing Anarchy's Dinghy Anarchy Forum from a gentleman who is a very legitimate source of info on the topic of disabled sailing under the screen name of COOL_Mobility... http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=86488&st=150&start=150




    True, this is but one man's opinion on the topic, but one would have to say that he speaks with more than a passing understanding of the issues involved.
     
  11. COOL Mobility
    Joined: Sep 2007
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    Location: Williamstown, Vic

    COOL Mobility Sailor using wheelchair

    Disabled Sailing Style Yachts

    Hi Cool Mobility here AKA Colin Johanson, from Australia. (IFDS Executive Member and also helped in the Skud 18 design/build too)

    You may be interested in looking at the IFDS Webpages (part of ISAF Website), especially http://www.sailing.org/disabled/13151.php which gives a list of the main yachts designed for use by disabled sailors. These range from the three Sonar, Skud18, 2.4R Paralympic Class yachts to the other popular Access Yachts (2.3, 303, Liberty, Super Liberty), Artemis 20, Challenger, Freedom Independence, GOS 16, Martin 16.

    There are other yachts being sailed by disabled sailors of course including Lasers, and other sports dinghies as many disabled sailors are fine in normal craft. I have an old Quarter Tonner 25' keelboat we've renovated and a friend sailed a 48' S&S non-stop around the world solo!

    Disabled sailors have competed in major ocean races like the Sydney-Hobart, Melbourn-Osaka, and many others. Sailors with a significant disibility are now quite common with many World, National and local sailing comps for disabled only or integrated with 'able bodied' sailors like the European 2.4R circuit.Sailing is an excellent sport for integration as the growth of Sailability World wide shows - see http://www.sailability.org/ .

    Cheers and keep the discussion going as open minds with fresh ideas can generate new concepts.

    Cheers
    Colin
     
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  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Trapwing

    I think a boat similar to the one envisioned below is AT LEAST worth experimentation and development to see if it might not be suitable for diabled sailors. Dismissing it out of hand is definitely shortsighted. And dismissing a selfrighting, wider, less powered up version of the concept makes absolutely no sense at all. There is tremendous potential for ablebodied and disabled sailors alike with this concept!


    I have always wanted to sail a boat like a 2.4 Meter but with much higher performance. I suggested a concept years ago and wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on how to make something like this work or improve the concept.
    The idea I had was to use a molded "wing" that would have ballast slide inside it to give large RM-similar to a two handed dinghy where one of the crew is on a trapeze. The ballast could be moved by hand, foot power or electrically. The boat might have a small fixed keel. The ends of the "wing" would be slightly larger in section to provide extra buoyancy. Each side of the wing would be supported by a "trapeze" wire making moving the whole wing(and the ballast inside it) fairly easy since it all moves horizontally.
    The idea is to sit in the boat like a 2.4 meter but plane early and fast.
    I'm interested in any ideas that would accomplish this in a relatively small POSSIBLY self righting monohull....

    Personally, a boat that would sail like a Windmill- with me sitting in the center- would be cool. That boat planes in 10 knots or slightly less and is a great ride offwind in a breeze. But a boat could be built that would be a bit more powerful and meet Bethwaites criteria for upwind planing:
    LOA 16'(or so)
    SA-around 160 sq.ft. upwind
    12' sliding "trapwing" with 160 lb ballast
    All Up boat weight minus wing,wing ballast and keel ballast including rig:160lb
    75lb keel bulb
    130lb-180lb crew
    SCP/Total Weight=30% @ 180lb crew

    As I envision it the wing+ballast is supported by trapeze wires-side to side movement would not require a whole lot of effort....
    Just as a rough illustration here is a picture of a Melges 24 model fitted with a "trapeze power ballast system". The battery was part of the sliding ballast and that could be done on a full size version. The "wing" on the model is just two carbon tubes that form a track for the ballast to slide on. To me, a molded wing
    on the full-size version would have a number of advantages including lower aerodynamic drag, buoyancy and it could be built with a slight curve.
    A well designed, tested and proven version of this boat(that was self-righting) COULD offer disabled sailors(and/or grumpy old men like me) a high performance single-handed alternative to the 2.4 meter. BUT,and this is important: to be viable this boat does not have to be suitable for disabled sailors! Don't view this concept ONLY thru the lens of what might be suitable for disabled sailors.
    Here's a pix of the model with the movable ballast system supported by trapeze wires. And a VERY ROUGH sketch of a 22' sit in version(design still being refined):
     

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  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Trapwing-wide

    Here are a couple of rough sketches of a selfrighting 16' version with a 4'6" beam and about 135 sq.ft. SA:
     

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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2009
  14. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Holy Moly.

    What can be said about something like this? On a positive note, it doesn't look like crayon.


    How can someone "design" something if they can't draw?
     

  15. bistros

    bistros Previous Member

    Come on Paul, he did say "self-frightening 16' Trapwing" didn't he? Maybe I read it too fast!

    You have to give Doug credit - he could give Donald Trump lessons in self-confidence in the face of insurmountable opposition. It takes a special person to post something that crude and maintain unshakable belief that it adequately and fairly represents his ideas and skills in a positive manner. There is a Monty Python Holy Grail-esque quality to Doug - "Come on, I'll take you!" after he's lost arms and legs in battle.

    Doug went off the deep end the other day on Sailing Anarchy because I stated a simple fact: ideas that exist only in his head aren't reality until they are built. How can someone professional become offended by that statement? His frothy, spittle flecked response was what one would expect from a lunatic in an asylum.

    None of my ideas are reality until built, which is why I'm now building a boat I proposed last fall, solicited designs, got community feedback and chose one to build. I've paid designer fees already, got CNC cut panels, done the preliminary material milling and prep and will be assembling within days. The world will see if it succeeds or fails - I'm publishing a build blog, and will let the chips fall where they may. I take no credit other than having the idea, driving design by my brief and pushing forward without fail on my schedule. I'm happy building stuff!

    Unlike Doug, I kept the concept simple, stuck to my chosen plan and actually reduced my expectations to fit a lower budget for good reasons - none of which had to do with lack of available funds. In my thirty plus years of product development, I've learned that rapidly moving target specifications never get hit, and products that explode in complexity don't get delivered.

    When this boat is done, I have a nagging thought to build the world's least expensive, simplest functional foiler - not because I have any serious interest in foiling, but just to prove that it can be done. There are so many things that are irrelevant and superfluous in the designs available today - expensive eye candy that doesn't deliver basic value. I'm willing to bet I could ask Bora Gulari to pilot it to prove it's function. Simple. Outside of the bounds of even development class rules. Trading longevity for function. Something to think about - AFTER the current project succeeds or fails. I have no problem keeping focus on the task at hand.

    --
    Bill
     
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