DIESEL TRUCK engine Marinization

Discussion in 'DIY Marinizing' started by FAST FRED, Aug 21, 2004.

  1. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,515
    Likes: 108, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I am working on a design with a rather unique operation plan.

    A "trawler" built saimilar to Cable & Wireless , 70 ft long but only 8 ft wide at the DWL.

    Trimarian style "trainer Floats aft for stability .

    Problem selecting a diesel to Marnize that can operate 95% of its life at an affordable 4 or 5 GPH and not suffer the early death from underloading.

    Top power (fer hours a year) would be nice at 250 or 300.

    Choices so far (as marine exhaust manifolds are avilable) Intl. DT 460 or Cummins fron Dodge truck.

    Both are cheap at wreckers , intl cheapest to overhaul.

    Sugestions?

    FAST FRED
     
  2. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 12,259
    Likes: 188, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    I suggest you get a marine engine. Marinizing a truck engine is very expensive. For example, the camshaft, governor, turbo, injection advance and cooling systems are different. By the time you change all that, it is cheaper to rebuild a marine engine.
     
  3. Thunderhead19
    Joined: Sep 2003
    Posts: 506
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 21
    Location: British Columbia, Canada

    Thunderhead19 Senior Member

    Fast fred. Don't let Gonzo throw water on your fire. I suspect that the cummins engine might be easier (cheaper) to marinize than would seem. Perhaps the IH engine would also. Don't get discouraged, do the leg work and work out the actual costs. Talk to your local cummins rep, you might be pleasantly surprised about a number of "truck" parts that are totally useable.
     
  4. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,094
    Likes: 62, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    70 feet trimaran trawler...

    As my pseudo tells you I'm very fond of motor trimarans... and I have a small experience on fishing boats; I've built some of them.

    A 70 feet boat -24 meters- is not a small project, even if tris are very light for their size, and the price of a boat is by weight, no length.

    May we know a bot more about your project? Size, displacement loaded, what kind of fishing and where? Material?

    Coming back to the engine, I agree with Gonzo's answer; marinize a truck big diesel is not a cheap task. I would look to marine engines, the market of used engines is wide, and medium size engines like the Yanmar are affordable.

    If you have the financing of a 70 feet trawler, the price of a marine engine (which is a small part of the price of a complete trawler) would not worry you.

    A part that, a trailer engine (very heavy but sturdy) is perfectly able to power a boat, as its RPM is pretty low and it's always used at its max torque (that explains trailers have gearboxes of 6 to 12 speeds). It's commonly done in Europe and in some 3rd world countries even the trailer gear box is used, as I've seen it in Senegal on shrimp boats. In this case a dry escape is used to keep the price low.

    If you have a good source of cheap engines, marinising a big diesel is not foolish, but I would figure the true price (from spare parts to work, and time spent on solving the problems, plus risks of malfunction) of the marinisation versus a marine engine with a 2000 hours warranty...
     
  5. Danielsan
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 229
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Belgium (Europe)

    Danielsan Amateur designer-builder?

    Hi Fast Fred,

    I do think there is a priceworthy possibility to marinize a car, truck,... engine.
    I also do agree that safety is #1 concern. Putting a marine alternator, starter should resolve the primary safety concerns if you plan to use a DIESEL engine. Also check local laws.

    Good venting and cooling will help to keep engine comp. gas and heat-free.

    The exhaust part should be wrapped in a heat resitant sheet with on the inside of that sheet some piping to get some raw water flow(cooling) around the heated parts.

    Some other things are needed, I am quite shure it can be done at a reasonable price, if you are not counting on new parts and manhours you spent.

    My posts concerning this topic are often counterdicted, I think there is different way of (i)rationality-realism between Europe, and the States. I am just shure that we have very powerfull and good quality car, truck engines to get the job done.

    Greetz,

    Daniel Peeters
     
  6. Corpus Skipper
    Joined: Oct 2003
    Posts: 606
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 173
    Location: Corpus Christi TX

    Corpus Skipper Hopeless Boataholic

    There is a company I believe in Houston that has marinization kits for the 6B Cummins engines. Can't remember the name, but I found it nosing around at 31 Bertrams on the 'net. A fella put 2 of them in his 31. I believe total cost, less labor, was about $25,000. I've seen used 6Bs for around $5,000 each with low mileage. Mostly the older 2 valvers, newer 4 valvers are more of course. Google 31 Bertram and you'll probably come across the reference, or maybe Cummins marinization. Good luck.
     
  7. Carteret
    Joined: Jan 2004
    Posts: 119
    Likes: 6, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 137
    Location: Eastern NC

    Carteret Senior Member

    The company's name is H & S Marine Services.
     
  8. Corpus Skipper
    Joined: Oct 2003
    Posts: 606
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 173
    Location: Corpus Christi TX

    Corpus Skipper Hopeless Boataholic

    Thanks Carteret! :D
     
  9. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,515
    Likes: 108, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    In the smaller diesels I can find little difference between the truck versions and boat versions. Not at all like auto conversions.

    Yes there IS a difference when DD wanted to plop twin turbos on the 8V96 or newer series 60's (650hp), but I'm hoping to avoid a turbo , and any controll electrics.

    The turbos seem very reluctant to operate at lower RPM with out sludging up , and I wonder about the wisdome of having electric injection on the only metal object within 500 miles.

    The goal in this radical boat is fast transit times , or at least as fast as 12 to 14K cruise will allow.

    To this end I intend to keep the truck tranny .
    2 speed marine trannys are OTS but $12,000 or so and the truck unit IS rated for cont duty (with cooling) .
    As most folks have seen the std "prop" diagram , the usual match is for top rpm.

    With cruise at 80% of rated HP at 90% of rated speed.Great if you have an oil well, and need top speed forever.

    Bringing the RPM down to 1200 -1500 usually means the prop operates so slowly that little speed can be obtained , and the engine is dangerously lightly loaded.
    BY having a mechanical method of increasing the propeller speed (tranny) the engine can be loaded back to an efficent range.

    Yes an EGT gage will be required , to keep from overloading .

    Cost should not be anywhere NEAR the cost of any other 70ft boat as this is really only 3, 20ft boats end to end.
    DL is estimated to be in the 50 range , depending on fuel load.

    Comments?

    FAST FRED
     
  10. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,094
    Likes: 62, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    About marinizing a truck diesel engine; H & S Marine Services has an internet site. That seems very interesting althought some 6 cylinders in line may vibrate hard... Lancel in England marinizes also the Ford Diesel. In Europe is a common operation.

    About power trimaran design; as naval engineer I do not share the optimism of Fast on the price of a 70 feet trimaran. It's not three boats of 20 feet put together. Prices and displacement varies at the cubic power of the legth.

    Trimarans have a lot of surface for their size and they are slim (so less I4/X4 inertia), that means you have to build light and strong. Try to figure the stresses induced by the engine weight while the boat in shaked in a bad sea...

    Trimarans have some peculiarities in vertical motions (as the ILAN or very slim boats) and pretty fast vertical accelerations (we have measured almost 2G on a french sail race multihull) and need carefully shaped bows.

    Aft outriggers are not the best option on a medium speed motor tri. If you are not convinced look at the pics of CERBERUS, the warship RV TRITON, Ilan Voyager by Nigel Irens (average 20.1 knots the round trip of British Islands, and 26 knots in top with 180 KW) and the 40 feet tri designed by Gino Morelli who crossed the Pacific at 10.68 knots with just 54 HP...

    The team (half civil, half military composed of the english top cream of naval engineers and architects, hydrodynamicists and so on ) who designed the RV Triton has spent about 8 years on defining the ratios of a trimaran. About 50 tank models with outriggers in front, middle and aft have been tested in the DERA tank towing facilities. So examine very closely the shape and placement on the outriggers on the RV Triton. You'll find in internet enough good pics specially of the launching to be able to redraw 75% of the undershape of the boat. Try to figure where are the LCB's of the main hull and of the outriggers and try to figure where they go on a close turn in a SS3 sea.

    Some pics of 60 feet sailing race multihulls will learn you also a lot on fast "displacement" hulls. These boats touch now the upper thirty knots but remain very fast in light weather and are indecently fast under engine. The pics of GITANA 11 are revealing...

    Good Luck
     
  11. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,515
    Likes: 108, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "It's not three boats of 20 feet put together. Prices and displacement varies at the cubic power of the legth".

    What you state is correct for most boats , but NOT what I have in mind.

    Imagine 3 boats stick together EG 70 ft long but only 8 wl beam and 12ft deck beam.

    The interior would be single level , no flybridge , oxygen tent , ect , just a small raised pilot house aft. Basically the same materials and time to build as 3 smaller boats.

    The trimiran concept is only to get rid of the need for much weight as was needed to keep Marco Polo upright.Seemes that slamm amas aft need not touch he water much to get a fine ride at anchor.

    Underway the amas would have movable surfaces (skis ) to allow a roll stability , with the same "guts" as normally powering std antiroll surfaces , just these couldnt be knocked off by a floating sealand box. Should have less drag at speed than "flopper stoppers" (Paravanes) .

    An additional advantage is with very shallow draft they could be lowered when taking the ground , allowing much easier mooring than a floating 70 ft would normally.

    A really unique concept (as seen on Feng Shuy) is a foward engine room. The usual bulkhead required works well at isolating the engine noise and stink and the space is seldome fit for humans anyway in much of a sea .
    The bulbous bow if frangable and yet built for flotation would handle the weight of a reasonable diesel.A long drive shaft is (truck style with tubing and intermediate bearings) quite cheap , even if 50 ft is needed.Although a prop thrust bearing is an added cost requirement necessary as truck trannys are not built to accept thrust as boat trannys are.

    Poland has been sugested as a constructor to work boat standards.

    Comments , sugestions?

    FAST FRED
     
  12. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,094
    Likes: 62, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member


    Time is precious, so my answer will be concise:
    Hire the services of a naval architect or you'll run in very big trouble.
     
  13. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,515
    Likes: 108, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    The NA that I know personally are hard to move from their previous experience.

    Design a 65ft sub T passenger boat in steel , there ALL in steel with 22ft beam!

    The Designer of the Ilan Voyager and or of

    http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/521/sort/1/size/medium/cat/500/page/1

    Would understand exactally what I would like to attempt.

    Stability at rest in port woulld be fine with a narrow hull (although the ability of a multihull to just go up & down in a very rolly anchorage would be lost).

    Underway I wonder if the stability created by Marco Polo's ballast keel & sail rig , or a trimirans Amas could be generated another way?

    The latest from Mitsubishi (?) is a big gyro that is claimed to work better than active stabilazation.

    Not dragging anything BUT the hull thru the water makes sense , if the ride is acceptable.

    To visualize the minimalist concept , see either of the boats above , but cut down to 11ft air hight (french canal hight).

    FAST FRED
     
  14. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 12,259
    Likes: 188, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    A boat with length/beam ratio like you describe would be more of a submarine. Also, in rough weather the bow and stern will come clear out of the water. Another problem is that the structure of a 70' boat is different from that of a 20'. The torque, slamming forces and other stresses increase.
     

  15. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,515
    Likes: 108, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    No question the scantlings would be far stronger than any 20 ft , but the 3 X 20 ft was to only visualize the concept,.

    EG, that the vessel would only be long and slender , not huge as most 70 ft seem to end up.

    With a DL down in the 50 or 60 range , like most multihulls the boat will be ON the water , barely IN the water, and follow surface waves as most multihulls do.

    Yes the very low profile could be subject to waves on deck in very heavy conditions, requiring commercial grade ports and hatches , but these are OTS (off the shelf) and would be readily avilable to a commercial building yard .

    Yes 8-1 or 9-1 LB ration is sub like , but there EZ to push thru the water too.

    FAST FRED
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.