Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Towboat Ed, Apr 21, 2009.

  1. floydrob
    Joined: Jul 2008
    Posts: 38
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: scotland

    floydrob Junior Member

    just had a nifty idea tho...although it requires alot of electricity to electrolyse pure water, a greater yeild of hydrogen can be got if the water is acidic, i.e. carbonic acid/nitric acid/sulphuric all have high hydrogen ion concentrations, and carbon dioxide, sulpher dioxide and nitrogen dioxide ALL come from the exhaust of any combustion engine, with the exception of carbon dioxide from a hydrogen powered engine.

    why not have exhaust from the deisel and hydrogen engines bubbling through water, this water then reacts with the 'dioxides' to give acidic soutions...lots of free hydrogen ions, but then to turn the hydrogen ions int o hydrgen gaseous molecules, u need to add electricity. this can be done well if you run a dynamo from the hydrogen engine, and a dynamo from the deisel engine...then when the hydrogen level falls below a level, turn it off and power up the deisel engine, this will electrolyse a store of hydrogen and boost the carbon dioxide into the water to give carbonic acid, then the hydrogen engine can be restarted using the supply of hydrogen gas and will be added to as the hydrogen continues to be produced as it is burned

    this is a do-able system, it is just weather on not the efficiency of the components will be sufficient to keep the hydrogen topped up. and hence how often the deisel will have to be used instead
     
  2. kistinie
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 493
    Likes: 8, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -74
    Location: france

    kistinie Hybrid corsair

    Some results

    Here are some results comming from my own test:

    Injecting propane and Hydrogen (approx 10 to 20%) to an old yanmar 1 GM 10 give much torque increasse, less noise and an important reduction of particles emited.

    Electrolysing water (with sodium hydroxyde) from a battery at 25 amps and injecting H² / O² this into a 1.9 turbo mechanical diesel pump XU citroen engine ...does nothing on fuel per Km.
    I will measure the particles emited with and without but i'm afraid it will be very similar.
    As combustion is not controled by any electronic on this engine it show clearly that producing H² this way, in this quantity, is not interresting.

    On another hand the explosion risk is certain if the device produce H² when engine is not running


    So the conclusion is not that the industry is honest, but that some individuals are not too. Telling lies, stealing the others is not only a "big business" sport.

    :(:(:(:(:(

    For the little history
    Intel is the last to be punished here in europe (1 billion)
     
  3. Towboat Ed
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 3
    Location: Harkers Island , NC

    Towboat Ed Junior Member

    My apologies for not posting daily, on my site.

    But I have had a few setbacks. I did not begin my voyage until May 8th., instead of the 2nd., as I had planned.On the 2nd.day, I measured the fuel to see how much I used on the 1st. day, only to discover that someone has siphoned about 150 gallons out of my tanks, at some point since I filled them two months ago. I have not seen any fuel at a price that I want to pay, along the way, so I probably will not fill-up until I get to Florida, where I have a connection.I cannot calibrate my Flow Scan Guage without filling-up after a couple days running,per manufacturers instructions.Of course, if someone wants to buy my fuel for me, I will do it your way. / ha ha/ Lots of good ideas here. I would like to state here, for the record, that my Hydrogen-On-Demand system produces H2, ONLY when the engine is producing OIL PRESSURE. It WILL NOT POWER-UP unless the relay is activated by 2 OIL PRESSURE SWITCHES. If the oil pressure ceases, the H2 production ceases. This design has been patented, although not by myself. If anyone thinks that I am just trying to make a fast buck here---you are wrong. I am doing this because I want to--not for the money. I posted the prices on my website only because I had people asking How Much ? I do not care if I sell 1 unit or not. I am retired & having fun doing what I want to do. I will start posting resultson my site as soon as I can..........
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Very important, and very interesting statements!!!!!
    and the artificial point of view.. I love that! True.
    But from a scientifical part of the drama, I must say, you are a dreamer and cheater as all of your predecessors.
    Not a single figure that we could measure!
    But for shure, you have proven what you wanted to proof, IT WORKS!
     
  5. thudpucker
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 885
    Likes: 31, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 453
    Location: Al.

    thudpucker Senior Member

    I wish you well Ed. I hope it works for you.
    I can envision an engine starting on Gasoline or Diesel, and running on H-Gas.

    If you make it work, I'd like to see how I could do it as a Fisherman in my little Jon boat with a 5 Hp Briggs.

    FLoydrob says he did that. I'd be ever so grateful if somebody'd help me out with the project.
     
  6. Guido Fawlkes
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 3
    Location: Sydney

    Guido Fawlkes New Member

    Hydrogen Enhanced Combustion

    What a lively Water4Gas forum and I like to add my 2 cents worth.

    As a qualified Marine Engineer (B.o.T. UK) I have worked with diesel engines (up to 21,000bhp on 80,000ton tankers) as well as quite a few inventors for most of my life.
    Lets get the inventors out of the way quickly. While many do come up with some really brilliant devices, most of them just don't understand the theory behind what they have achieved/discovered. What makes it worse is that they can, generally, never be bothered to research the theory behind their work since they either just know it all or have some considerable contempt for all this theoretical nonsense. This explains some of the more flatulent claims made.

    Now to the Water4Gas method and these "the battery supplies the power for the electrolysis", claims as an example.
    A car does not need a battery to run. The battery's sole purpose is to start the engine and to store the necessary energy.
    It is the alternator/generator, which supplies the electric energy for the ignition and charging of the battery as well as all the other electricity requiring accessories such as, in this instance, the Water4Gas electrolyzer.

    Now lets get to the much-misquoted 2nd law of thermodynamics in this context. While it is correct that the energy required to generate the hydrogen is greater than the energy contained in the generated hydrogen, it is equally true that the hydrogen added to the fuel adds to the "more rapid combustion" of the fuel and not necessarily to the, allegedly, more efficient combustion.

    Generally, the power required to produce the hydrogen is about 1/4hp. The most likely cause of the claimed mileage gain is the shorter distance of the piston stroke over which the fuel is combusted, leaving a longer distance of the piston stroke to do its work.

    Now, why does this cause the engine to operate at a lower temperature? This is related to the rate of heat transfer over time, i.e. shorter burn time equals less heat transferred.
    Try this with your fingers on a blow torch; flick your finger through the flame quickly and no harm is done, because the heat transferred over such a short span of time is relatively limited and efficiently dispersed by your body's cooling system. Try the same thing over a longer period of time and more heat is transferred and you will feel the consequences very quickly.

    Hydrogen generated (not stored) on board a boat/ship does not pose the same problem as petrol/gasoline for the following reasons:
    Petrol/gasoline fumes are heavier than air and tend to stay in the lowest sections of a vessel and are easily ignited. That is why marine petrol/gasoline engines are usually outboard motors with portable outboard tanks.
    Diesel fuel does not exhibit these ignition characteristics. Hydrogen, being a lot lighter than air, will rapidly evaporate and disperse. If the hydrogen is only generated while the engine is running and “sucked” into the engine and with a flashback arrestor installed should be perfectly safe.

    For more detailed info about add on hydrogen systems you can read these articles http://tinyurl.com/qk8uq2
     
  7. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
    Posts: 2,164
    Likes: 53, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 575
    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    This thread drive me crazy... People coming up with crazy ideas and stating them as fact. First some simple points.
    A diesel engines requires how much air? A lot
    A typical 200 hp diesel needs like 30,000 cfm of air at full throttle. The little hydrogen producer makes less than 1 cfm of hydrogen. Seriously, guys do you think the diesel even knows that there is that little hydrogen in there. Injecting propane is different because your are injecting gallons of it per minute. Hydrogen is not a very good fuel, if anything it will lower combustion temperatures and reduce total efficiency.

    One other point if these hydrogen gizmo were so good.... You all would be billionaires and everyone would be using them .... There is no conspiracy just the laws of thermodynamics, physics and common sense.



    Determine the maximum engine horsepower of each machine and multiply the total horsepower (of all of the machines) by 150 CFM.
     
  8. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,519
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "That is why marine petrol/gasoline engines are usually outboard motors with portable outboard tanks."

    What part of boating have you missed for the past 100YEARS?

    Gas engines , car marinizations have been a standard on pleasure boats since the Packards , Sterlings and other purpose built gas marine engines were phased out.

    They work great in boats to about 40 ft , where more than 200hp single or 400hp (twin engines) is required.

    Advantages cheaper to remove and replace than some industrial diesels are to "tune up".
    Service life 1000 hours with a fool and 2000 with a knowledgable owner.And most are 1/2 to 1/4 the weight of a similar HP diesel, which makes plaining easier.

    As most pleasure boats run 100 hours a year , if that , 10 to 20 years from a car block is fine.

    Efficiency , better than it used to be , IF you are willing to risk electronics , instead of a good carburetor.

    The BMW and Mercedes diesels now being marinized are CAR engines , and will have a car engine service life , not the long term life of an industrial diesel, but for 100hrs a year , most say "What Me Worry"?

    FF
     
  9. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
    Posts: 2,164
    Likes: 53, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 575
    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    "That is why marine petrol/gasoline engines are usually outboard motors with portable outboard tanks DEPENDS ON SIZE OF BOAT...
    My engines are over 10,000 hours and 20 years old... I don't even calculate service life... I rebuild them as needed every 8000 hours...
    They don't have any fancy electronics on engines that I can't bypass and run without them anyway.
    I love gas outboards for day boats. But the minute you need a boat to travel for several days were weather could change, you need a deeper prop and fuel economy of a diesel.

    So don't make blank statements about outboards being the only solution. Outboards of any size are also prone to corrosion and are extremely expensive per hp. Gasoline in a boat is a fire hazard like propane, it is just a matter of how well you handle it. I would never have an inboard gas engine boat any more.
     
  10. thudpucker
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 885
    Likes: 31, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 453
    Location: Al.

    thudpucker Senior Member

    I like Guido's explanation. Henry Ford and those guys were long ago replaced by expensive R&D labs. Inventors these days are dreamers like me.

    I dont want to invent anything, I just want to put a Hydrogen generator on my little 5Hp Briggs and power a boat with it.

    How do I go about it?
     
  11. floydrob
    Joined: Jul 2008
    Posts: 38
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: scotland

    floydrob Junior Member

    well, u dont know till u try!!! and the only thing pi**in me off about this forum is the amount of naysayers and people sayin the hate the thread...a good we sayin keeps coming to mind "if u dont like the rules, dont play the fuc*in game!" or in metephorical terms, if u hate the thread so much, stop readin it!

    as for using sodium hydroxidaeas an electrolyte...please explain!!!??? the hydrogen ion concentration isd like next to none! use an acidic solution with a high hydrogen ion concentration. sulphuric acid/nitric acid etc etc.

    as for running a small 5hp briggs, thats exactly what i done, but i had to make and store the hydrogen, if i was to do it again, i'd add a dynamo to the engbine and bring a 12V battrery to keep the hydrogen store (very small) topped up.

    if anyone has ever burned hydrogen, u will realise it isnt as dangerous as petrol from a combustion point of view. if you combus hydrogen it quickly pops, barely enough to singe ur eyebrows it's that quick, petrol keeps going as it slowly releases energy
     
  12. Guido Fawlkes
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 3
    Location: Sydney

    Guido Fawlkes New Member

    thudpucker: "How to go about it"

    It is human nature to object to anything new, even if it is not and has been known for over 90 years.
    In years gone by, the very same naysayers used to incinerate those who claimed the earth was round and not flat. You can still find Flat Earthers in the search engines.

    Suffering from a very pedantic heritage I research everything, of interest to me, very thoroughly with an open mind and have learned to sort fact from fiction and 1/2 truths.
    You can get the very thorough manuals, with lots of pictures and diagrams, from this site

    http://watergas4fuel.com

    This system is easiest with diesel engines, which seem to be a natural.
    Also older car models not controlled by a computer are easily dealt with. The more recent car models require a few more extras as explained in great detail in the manuals. Personally, I would leave this part of the installation to a more specialized mechanic.

    BTW: "usual" means exactly what it says and is a qualifier meaning not all inclusive. I have seen too many inboard petrol/gasoline powered boats go up in flames and losing their buoyancy. Yet I observed the very same people rebuilding their wooden boat with an inboard petrol/gasoline engine. It's just Murphy's Law compounded with indifference.
    Of course, diesel engines are more expensive than petrol/gasoline engines. But what is the total cost of a combusted boat?
     
  13. thudpucker
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 885
    Likes: 31, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 453
    Location: Al.

    thudpucker Senior Member

    This is just an Aside; When I look at the name, " Guido Fawlkes", I see "Guy Fawlkes"!
    I think he was a famous sumpinorother in English history. Thanks for the link.

    Floyd, I've seen so far that a person can inject some AC across a tank of water and the bubbles of H-gas are seen boiling off.
    So if we capture this boiling mass of bubbles, eventually the pressure of the Bubbles will force the gas toward some escape.
    If we make that escape, a portal into the throat of the Carb on this small B&S engine, the H-Gas should go in with the air and be combusted.

    OK so far. Now, it has to be metered some way or the little B&S will continue to burn Gasoline and the H-Gas and we'll never know whether we made it run on H-gas or not.

    My idea is to make a pressure sensative (needle valve) so that the pressure from the H-gas comes up, it shuts off the Gasoline supply.

    Now the B&S is running on pure Hydorgen. Probably not going to run well on pure H-Gas because as a volitile gas, H-Gas is a Wannabe along side Methane and Gasoline etc.
    So some trick and fancy metering is gonna be necessary.
    Exactly the right amount of H-Gas and Gasoline for the Rpm is the real challenge here.

    Also, can the Electrical generator make enough H-Gas for an extended Hi speed run? 3500 Rpm for an hour would be a good test.
     
  14. Guido Fawlkes
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 3
    Location: Sydney

    Guido Fawlkes New Member

    Guy Fawlkes

    The only man known in history to enter parliament with honest intentions.
    This could explain why he did not succeed.
     

  15. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
    Posts: 2,164
    Likes: 53, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 575
    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    I believe that Guido Fawlkes is seller of hydrogen powered snake oil. His only posts are Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler is related to http://watergas4fuel.com see below.
    Same thing for Towboat ED is also below is his www.water4fuel4boats.com Look at join dates... at what they post about before taking them seriously.
    If you guys want to sell your products here, that is fine with me. But please explain to people your ulterior motives. Also explain that these products are no more than your conceptual idea that don't really work. Good Luck guys. Oh, I am working on antimatter power outboard, gets 3 trillions miles per gallon. Want to see my website. http://www.eveonline.com/download/videos/?type=4
    ==================================================
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Guido Fawlkes
    Guy Fawlkes

    The only man known in history to enter parliament with honest intentions.
    This could explain why he did not succeed.
    Forum: Hybrid Yesterday, 11:19 PM
    Replies: 88
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Guido Fawlkes
    thudpucker: "How to go about it"

    It is human nature to object to anything new, even if it is not and has been known for over 90 years.
    In years gone by, the very same naysayers used to incinerate those who claimed the earth was...
    Forum: Hybrid 05-15-2009, 08:07 AM
    Replies: 88
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Guido Fawlkes
    Hydrogen Enhanced Combustion

    What a lively Water4Gas forum and I like to add my 2 cents worth.

    As a qualified Marine Engineer (B.o.T. UK) I have worked with diesel engines (up to 21,000bhp on 80,000ton tankers) as well as quite...

    ==========================Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    My apologies for not posting daily, on my site.

    But I have had a few setbacks. I did not begin my voyage until May 8th., instead of the 2nd., as I had planned.On the 2nd.day, I measured the fuel to see how much I used on the 1st. day, only to...
    Forum: Hybrid 05-02-2009, 12:58 PM
    Replies: 88
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Thank you MM. You are right in post #9...I should...

    Thank you MM. You are right in post #9...I should have re-worded it. I agree 100%. You obviously understand the whole process better than I do, and I mean this sincerely. But, I am learning every...
    Forum: Boat Design 05-02-2009, 12:04 PM
    Replies: 63
    hydrogen powered marine engine
    Views: 3,346
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    I do know there are probably hundreds of systems...

    I do know there are probably hundreds of systems that do work. I attended the HHO Games & Exposition in Bradenton Fl in Nov. & again in Feb.of this year. Check out the links below. The promoter of...
    Forum: Hybrid 05-02-2009, 11:07 AM
    Replies: 88
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    I dont know about thousands , but I do know there...

    I dont know about thousands , but I do know there are probably hundreds of systems that do work. I attended the HHO Games & Exposition in Bradenton Fl in Nov. & again in Feb.of this year. Check out...
    Forum: Boat Design 04-30-2009, 09:08 AM
    Replies: 63
    hydrogen powered marine engine
    Views: 3,346
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Keep em coming guys. I am learning something from...

    Keep em coming guys. I am learning something from every post. Obviously some very smart people here. I will be getting underway in a day or two. I will be posting my fuel burn figures daily,good or...
    Forum: Hybrid 04-30-2009, 08:39 AM
    Replies: 88
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Keep em coming guys. Im getting underway in a...

    Keep em coming guys. Im getting underway in a couple days. I will prove it works. I dont have time to argue about the old outdated science or physics. I do appreciate your interest. I will be posting...
    Forum: Boat Design 04-22-2009, 08:51 AM
    Replies: 63
    hydrogen powered marine engine
    Views: 3,346
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Boston, I do not have the schematics, but here...

    Boston, I do not have the schematics, but here are some pictures of the unit on my boat. I will be sailing in a week or so, for a month or more of cruising & proving he system. All my fuel-burn...
    Forum: Boat Design 04-22-2009, 08:36 AM
    Replies: 63
    hydrogen powered marine engine
    Views: 3,346
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    MM, I still have not found that site, but Ill...

    MM, I still have not found that site, but Ill keep trying cause I know I read it.Here is the link on the City I mentioed..............
    ...
    Forum: Hybrid 04-21-2009, 06:30 PM
    Replies: 88
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Hi Rick...the "Test Results" tab, or...

    Hi Rick...the "Test Results" tab, or page was just added to my site. by my webmaster, yesterday. Maybe I should have waited until I am ready to leave on the 2-3 month cruise. Thanks for bringing that...
    Forum: Boat Design 04-21-2009, 04:36 PM
    Replies: 63
    hydrogen powered marine engine
    Views: 3,346
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    MM, I am looking for the website where I read...

    MM, I am looking for the website where I read that. It has been a while. In the meantime, while searching for that site, I saw an interesting U-Tube video from another Canadian Company......
    ...
    Forum: Hybrid 04-21-2009, 11:26 AM
    Replies: 88
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
    Views: 1,029
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler

    I hope I am not violating any forum rules by posting a link to my website, but is the best way I know to show my Hybrid www.water4fuel4boats.com
    If anyone wants to discuss it, I will get back...
    Forum: Boat Design 04-21-2009, 08:48 AM
    Replies: 63
    hydrogen powered marine engine
    Views: 3,346
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Most problems relating to the use of Hydrogen are...

    Most problems relating to the use of Hydrogen are with storage.With a Hydrogen-On-Demand System, it is never stored, but is used as-it-is-made. It is made by splitting water with Brute Force...
    Forum: Boat Design 04-20-2009, 07:16 PM
    Replies: 63
    hydrogen powered marine engine
    Views: 3,346
    Posted By Towboat Ed
    Hydrogen-on-demand for boats

    I am new here. I just found this thread .I realize it is a very old thread, but this technology has advanced tremendously in the last few years, and even in the last few months.If the members here do...
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.