diagonal planking

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Boston, May 8, 2009.

  1. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    Boston,

    Cold moulded or strip planking, to me the ONLY choices today for a wooden boat.

    Bugger the "do gooder" bit about using epoxy, if you are going to use all the woods you claim, then do so responsibly, responsibly is to make the best use of the materials and be sure they will have as long a useful life as is possible knowing what we know currently about construction methods.

    The interior can be exquisite if you so desire, nice woody surfaces everywhere, that is easily achieved in cold moulded or strip planking, the materials used are assembled into very strong composites either way you choose to fly, both methods produce very pleasing shapes, though the cold moulded would be stronger (i think) weight for weight of materials.

    Another very important thing to remember, building a crap design and building a good design cost the same amount of money, resale is another thing that you must consider, why build a crap design when there are so many good designs available for good home builder construction.

    I have seen your work posted here previously, you are more than capable at building anything, so think about what you are doing and build your work of art, not just for yourself, but so that when the time comes, it is a valuable asset to be sold. Too many people put hundreds of thousands of dollars into , what they believe to be masterpieces, unfortunately the general public do not feel the same, so their boats become almost worthless when they get sold.

    Enjoy the build mate anyhow. I know it is going to be something special.

    I do not agree with a lot of what you write, but you certainly are a true master tradesman.
     
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yachts of that class are given a ceiling, so there aren't any "structures" to really look at, except deck beams, which are also over rated, particularly when you bang your head on them.

    Use double planking set in 9 pound shellac. No epoxy and it'll last for generations. Of course you'll be best advised to use Herreshoff scantling rules or slightly heavier to keep the weight down.

    I too wouldn't recommend a molded hull for a back yard build, even with your woodworking experience. It's a job best suited for a shop with climate control and vacuum bagging abilities. It's not an easy method and quite labor intensive.

    Forget about the Cutts method if you elect to alter the schedule. It only works with the cords in place and of dubious value if you ask me.

    Considering your desires, you should read Buehler's book "Back Yard Boatbuilding". It's structure all over the place, very little if any epoxy, big nuts, bolts, timbers and slam bam boat building. His focus is on readily obtainable materials like roofing tar, lagging compound laid fabric decks, etc. Of course it produces a hefty boat as he would but it, stout enough to really bash things if they get in your way. This would require a design with substantial displacement, possibly (quite likely) more then you have available in the design you've selected. Why use drywall when you want a log home . . . which I think is the crux of your issues.

    Determine what you want in regards to structure, then select scantlings to fit. Of course they need to suit the boat. That Elco was fairly lightly built for what it is over a moderately stiff framing structure. The scantlings wouldn't be terribly difficult to work out, though I think you currently lack the skills to do so. It's not something you can "take a stab at" in this displacement range. The original plans are still available (at least enough to work from), but you'll have to plop down some cash.

    Considering the scope of the project, the amount of man hours necessary, the amount of materials and equipment, having a set of plans worked out for the method of choice seems a reasonably direction to venture into. It insures you get what you want, the hull will float deck side up come launching day and it will not hog the first time you throttle up. Yep, it'll cost thousands of dollars, but this is a small fraction of the total cost of a project like this.
     
  3. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    well I got a real bang out of the do gooder comment
    bout fell off my chair actually
    hardwood is plentiful since folks back east learned to selective cut about a hundred years ago, its not been a problem. Its out west and in the northwest were clear cutting is still allowed that we are running out of old growth, plywood being the main contributor to the forests demise. Another reason I dont much like the stuff.

    Im not sure anyone who looks at that old Elco is going to think crap design
    but to each his own.

    the boat will be as comfortable as I can make it with as few and as large a rooms as I can reasonable accommodate. the cielings are all 7'2', there are two beautiful sets of full stairs with turned railings going one, down from the wheel house to the master cabin and the master bath and the other going forward to the guest berths guest bath and the storage lockers. Im not sure were Im putting the galley yet but its going to be serviceable not extravagant. it seem like a lot but Im going minimalistic with the basic layout and fittings

    The master cabin is 18'x10 with two sets of full stairs with turned railings and flared lowers and uppers one going up to the aft deck and the other up to the wheel house. there will be a small wood stove and entertainment area as well as matching built in wardrobes and of course a bar with wall mounted faucet valves and Bates and Bates hand pounded brass sink flush mounted in a black marble counter top over a radius sink base. Ive designed a lot of vacation homes in the mountains around here and I got use of space and interior design down mate, besides Im starting with a classic and just sprucing it up some.

    once I get the structural considerations down Ill get serious with the elevations and interiors
    but I dont think there is a soul alive who is going to call this thing poorly designed or constructed

    besides
    Ive got all of you guys to rake me across the coals if I suggest something completely stupid eh

    cheers
    B
    and thanks
    confidence appreciated

    par Ive heard of people using varnish or shellac like it was glue
    I should boil some and see what shakes loose

    Im just kinda playing with the scantlings at the moment but I bet Im close in terms of my alterations, however, as previously stated Ill have everything checked by someone professional, but Im definetly going to design my own joinery. The actual prints are going to be interesting to say the least, If you remember the days when a decent set of prints started with an artists rendering of some perspective view and each page went on to have some bit of artistic expression on it thats what Im after. I should scan even just one page off a set of my prints and you would immediately see what Im after in terms not just engineering skills but also style and balance in every aspect of the job.

    [​IMG]

    this one was practice for a set of prints on a house up in Estes Park

    I've read parts of Buehlers book and thought he was kinda a wood butcher
    also has no sense of design whatsoever
    and his structural considerations are mainly based on just using bulk crappy wood rather than the correct amount of the correct wood for the job
    the man had no sense of joinery whatsoever with everything being butted and bolted or at least most of it

    with a 7'2" ceiling I dont think to many people are going to be cracking there heads on the deck beams
    Im debating whether to do a tongue and groove on a wish bone layout
    its easy and the diagonal layed planks will aid in strength

    what I want is an artistically well built and strong boat using the right wood for the job and as little glue as possible
    Im a big believer that a joint that is as homogeneous in nature as possible, will outlive joints were some components expand and contract at substantially differing rates than others creating an all to common servumstance were fasteners work and chew there way out of a hole rather than bend and flex with the structure as a whole.
    Ive built some serious stuff with all wood joinery and this is no different. Bolts are for those who have never seen a properly turned treenail or have no clue what a foxlock is.

    the cuts method didnt impress me that much but I did like the way the planking was continuous under the keel
     
  4. erik818
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    erik818 Senior Member

    Boston,
    Why do you consider epoxy to be unfriendly to the environment compared to other production methods? I've tried to google the issue without success. I don't know how epoxy is produced and if this causes an environmental problem.

    I don't trust that old traditional methods and materials are more environmental friendly than the modern variants. Epoxy/glass makes it possible to build lighter wooden boats than with traditional methods. I think this is a great bonus for the environment, mostly because of reduced fuel consumption. Also wood pellets and wear on steam engines have an environmental footprint.

    Erik
     
  5. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    There are alternatives to epoxy......

    Find Woodenboat Magazine #144 with an article by John Guzzwell on building his cold-molded racer, Endangered Species. John became sensitized to epoxy some time ago, he also happened to be a highly regarded modern wooden boat builder. He coldmolded the hull skin of 5 layers of Sitka Spruce using Borden Wonderbond XB90K5. Then he had his sons sheath the hull in glass using epoxy. For submerged joints he used Cascophen resorcinol glue.

    John's book, Modern Wooden Yacht Construction, while long out of print, is the best one on the practical part of actually building the boat. The Gougeon book is good too, just from a different point of view.

    Below are some stark interiors in cold-molded boats. The first one is Signe, 100' ketch, 2nd pic is Antonisa 124' Sloop, 3rd is Chanty2 52' Ketch.

    signe_c.jpg

    Antonisagalley.jpg

    Chanty2.jpg
     
  6. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    there are bound to be great alternatives to epoxy

    besides the world is swimming in a snowstorm of molecular plastic
    plastic outweighs plankton in the ocean 10/1

    all you need to do is look at the components in whatever epoxy you are considering and start looking em up. One of the most friendly epoxies is made up of Epichlorohydrin and Bisphenol-A

    Epichlorohydrin

    I got this from the EPA which is about the most industry friendly report Ive seen on this stuff, other than getting info from the chemical companies themselves

    Bisphenol-A

    I got this from Wikipedia which I typically do not reference but its a ok summery and its reasonably neutral in its presentation

    Basically if your building a live aboard and you use these kinds of chemicals you shouldn't be surprised if your grand kids pop out with a few extra appendages or little Jimmy end up shooting blanks.
    Then there is the sensitivity issue, why do you suppose so many people develop sensitivities to these chemicals, seems like a reasonable question.
    next on the hit parade of questions is if this stuff is so stable why is it that in ( not in an average of human samples taken ) in "every" human sample examined levels of BPA exceeded the allowable safe limits set for human exposure. Turns out the stuff is soluble at room temperature and since its used to line cans manufactured for food contact ( some countries, Canada for instance are discussing banning its use ) its been leaching into our food.

    If BPA is soluble in water at room temperature from its polymer position within epoxy then my question is
    that has yet to be answered
    what is the life span of epoxy if one of its primary components is busy leaching away into its surroundings

    Im sure someone will freak out over the question but its valid
    what is the life span of epoxy
    and why if one of its major components is leaching away should I expect it not have a finite life span

    stuff is definitely bad for you and bad for the environment as is Resourcinol
    fiberglass is very epoxy intensive

    wood is the most environmentally friendly of building materials and wood pellets are carbon neutral
    it being one of the least energy intensive fuels to produce and one of the most energy efficient fuels to burn
    and
    its cheaper per BTU by almost half when measured against diesel at $3 a gallon
    and diesel wont be at $3 a gallon for long

    also pellets can be made simply by using a machine costing about $2000 producing about 600 lb/hr
    a steam engine produces significantly less waist oil and uses significantly less resources to produce than a diesel engine
    there are numerous examples of steam engines today that are still in perfectly good working order that have never been overhauled
    a simple single expansion single acting steam engine producing 125 hp is about ~27% efficient compared to a diesel at ~35%
    in terms of environmental foot print pellet fuels are unbeatable and steam engines are less than half the embodied energy to produce

    we can just keep doing what we have always done
    course now there's 6.7 billion of us
    and go the way of the Dodo
    or we reconsider what we do
    and possibly survive

    its an individual choice

    cheers
    B

    Tad
    nice boat that guy built
    tons of interior wall treatment
    For me at least how things go together is one of the most attractive aspects of any structure. Materials are often wasted on wall treatments designed to hide structural elements that were never expected to meet and aesthetic level of quality sufficient for a finish surface. Why, I have built countless houses were structural elements were manufactured to standards enabling them to constitute finish. Its cheaper, more efficient, uses less materials and more money can go into the actual structure of the build rather than covering up sloppy work.
    Mr Guzzwel's boat is beautiful by the way dont get me wrong

    that glue suggest is my project for today
    Borden Wonderbond XB90K5.
    so thanks for the tip

    B

    I got a file of all the best suggestions
    but the one thing Im real curious about is
    how close was I on my estimation of the frame size and spacing given my sheathing considerations
    someones bound to have that off the top of there head

    I found this while looking up the PVA glue mentioned
    its an opinion piece but it pretty well makes its point

     
  7. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Ive got roughly 3,800 sq/ft of surface needing to be glued
    both sides
    so that ends up being 7,600 sq/ft if I coat both surfaces
    at ~150 sq/ft a gallon for epoxy thats about 50 gallons
    at about $75 a gallon but I gotta buy 100 gallons to get that price
    g-flex type west system

    shellac I can get for $10 a pound and the suggestion was made to use a 9 lb mix covers about 215 sq/ft pr gallon at $100 a gallon
    so Ild need about 35 gallons

    benefit being if it works

    shellac is edible and is still used to coat candies
    epoxy
    not so much
     
  8. kerosene
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    kerosene Senior Member

    you should check the shellac article in last years wooden boat. if you already haven't
     
  9. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    strong as a rock, eh, its not that strong, if a 500 ton rock fell on this boat would it last 50 years or 50 hours
     
  10. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    well written, oestrogen leeches out of cheese packaging, & feminises fish, what does it do to us, steve mcqeen died of asbestosis,one ,one part glue we used was cascamite made by borden, how comparitively inert is it , there's a tale of an african, breaking silica rocks with his only tool, a 6ft steel bar, 5 years later he's dead from silicosis, when we built 2, 72ft strip planked yachts at Southampton Yacht Services, Silica You See, ran the lads daily joke, you couldn't see one end of the boat from the other, not that the bosses cared, if you died they'd just get another shipwright or joiner,silica filler in epoxy, its lethal, even with a mask, its still all over the yard, in the office, the yard cat, the starlings, bla bla
     
  11. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    shellac & oiled or painted calico work well & are much healthier, on a tangent, if stradivarius had used epoxy instead of a form of shellac on his violins, what would they sound like, & what would they be worth
     
  12. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    ukanottbsirius, the manufacture of epoxy is lethal
     
  13. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    i was in charge of construction of a consolidated commuter 66ft Mohican,1929 in elba ,we restored 50% of her traditionally double planked on white lead /calico , similar to your Elco, mahogany panelled, copper shaft logs for lightness,the right balance maybe between speed, beauty & not screwing the environment
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Pete
    would you be willing to relay what you can remember of her structural details
    Par
    you mentioned that prints were available for the elco, Where ? You also mentioned bedding diagonal planking in shellac. After reading all day on that idea I like it, allot, any further insight into that method would be greatly appreciated.
    Tad
    I checked up on that Borden glue, its in the same family as TB3 and is not intended for below waterline use. what MR Guzzwel did was interesting to say the least. I assume he knows this family of glues is known for failure under high loads and is not the best for structural use, but Im betting he thought that the load of the cold molded hull was spread evenly over the hull meaning that no individual area is subject to inordinate stress that might result in a catastrophic failure. Did you read the book and did he allude to that as his reasoning, or am I barking up the wrong tree. Obviously it worked and its not a bad idea if it does as over in the TB3 testing thread it was mentioned that TB3 survives boiling and prolonged submersion with a significant amount of its strength intact, I better go check that cause I could be remembering it wrong but Im pretty sure that was the conclusion.
     

  15. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    While Consolidated or Elco commuter yachts might be fine vessels, there is nothing about their design or construction that makes them a "transoceanic capable" boat. They were flat bottomed, light displacement boats designed for speed over short distances. Tankage was perhaps 500 gallons of fuel and 200 of water, the electrical system weighed almost nothing, there was no capacity for sea stores, etc. The cracker box deckhouse with weak windows, low sides with little reserve stability, and violent motion deriving from this hull form and VCG, make this design a poor choice for ocean work. Of course folks cross oceans in far worse vessels.

    Guzzwell published his book in 1979, at that time he used and believed in epoxy, though he also used a lot of resorcinol as well. I believe he discovered the sensitivity to epoxy in the early 1990's. In 1994 he published an article (WoodenBoat #119) on building a boat called Dolly with Wonderbond. He states that he ran some tests and found Wonderbond completely acceptable. "I boiled several samples for an hour in one of my wief's cooking pots and found that the plywood glues failed but the Wonderbond still hung in there. Other tests included glueing fabrics like glass cloth and Dynel to plywood, then observeing the performence over several month's exposure to rain (Seattle) and hot sun. My conclsion was that Wonderbond was a low-cost, easily used, water cleanup adhesive that was eminatly suitable for my project-even though the manufactureers stated that it was not reccomended for "continued submerssion."
    I reasoned that if the laminate were kept dry, as it should be, by having the exterior waterproofed with an epoxy fiberglass skin (which my family could apply), the "continued submersion" warning could be disregarded."

    I saw Dolly in Port Townsend a couple of years ago, at about 15 years of age, she was perfect.
     
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