Developing dieselelectric concepts.

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Powerconversion, Jan 30, 2016.

  1. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    If it is a reason to tinker, I am all for it. However, your original post was about cost effectiveness.
     
  2. Powerconversion
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    Powerconversion Junior Member

    In my original post solar power was not mentioned ;)
     
  3. philSweet
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    @powerconversion.

    I wasn't interested in lab stuff that for now can only be made in milligram sizes and falls apart when taken out of a bell jar and exposed to air. I've read your other posts and you clearly know your stuff. I did go to the trouble to look up the specs on a variety of commercially stocked supercaps, and also some of the hyrbid batteries systems that are out there. I based my numbers on products that I could go out and buy and make work on a boat. If you can show me a supercap product that I can buy with more than 4 W-h/kg storage after being assembled into a module comparable to a typical battery, I'd like to see it because I didn't find any.

    A bank of cheap lead acid deep cycle batteries can easily run 20W-h/kg. If you were specifically designing for a 40 minute discharge, you would have to derate regular batteries quite a bit. Or switch to something like an Optima D34M and derate far less, but at a substantial cost increase. And cycling them 10 times per day would kill most of them in a month. Supercaps start to look attractive when the discharge is around a minute, or when you need 5,000 cycles per year, or when heat generation is a major concern, or when extreme dump charging is wanted.

    It's as if a 10kW diesel engine only came with a choice of two fuel tanks. One holds 24 kg of fuel and runs 10 hours full throttle. The other holds 10 grams and runs for 15 seconds. If you want a different endurance, you will have to buy something other than a 10kW motor. We are still a long way from closing this gap with any kind of smooth looking cost structure.

    I tried to find a 3-D Ragone chart that included price/W-h, but no luck. But here's one oriented towards the endurance time.
     

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  4. cmckesson
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    cmckesson Naval Architect

    1: "Solar panels DO supply the majority of the propulsion power on my monohull cruising sailboat."

    2: "No one with minimal technical background would ever claim that solar panels could provide a reasonable proportion of power for propulsion."

    I do have a technical background. Perhaps the difference is that I am speaking only of the mechanical propulsion of my vessel? My vessel is primarily sail-driven. The mechanical propulsion is used to get out of an anchorage, or sometimes to get into one after the wind has dropped.

    I suspect that the real difference here lies in what one considers a "reasonable portion." For me, those few hours of motoring are "reasonable"...and they are provided by my solar array.
     
  5. cmckesson
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    cmckesson Naval Architect

    Just to be clear: "Tinkering" was indeed the reason I went to electric drive. Simply because I wanted to play with it.

    Since doing so, I have come to appreciate it's advantages and live with it's disadvantages. I most emphatically DO NOT claim that it's the solution for every vessel - indeed I have published several professional articles explaining the myriad _disadvantages_ of electric & hybrid drives.

    Some people like gaff rigs. Some people like Cat Boats. Some people like electric. Variety is the spice of life.

    Chris
     
  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I can relate to that. Many of my personal projects only make sense to the crazies in this forum.
     

  7. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    I stumbled across this report today and thought it should go somewhere in the hybrid forum. This seemed like a reasonable place. It provides a neat survey of small marine genset performance including valuable part-throttle fuel consumption. The testers are in the business of making multiplexed and parallel load management and battery charging gadgets. After testing the bare gensets, they tested them in parallel with their own products. The testing is quite professional, and the data is nicely presented.

    https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE_Marine_generator_test_RVA_07-jan-2008.pdf

    https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-EN-EnergyUnlimited.pdf
     
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