Designing your own boat, A fool for a client?

Pierre R
The problem you face now is that your focusing upon small details. These details ahve a very minor affect on your SOR.

The key issues are cost and performance.

Don't focus on little details, even though you can "measure" these details, they do not affect cost/performance as much as you think. They only affect your emotions and can be "measured" by decimal places on a monitor.

Draw a rough GA, in pencil. Draw on graph paper, so it is to a scale. Draw your "wish" list. As you begin to draw certain "details" suddenly become irrelevant...and then your own "design spiral" will start to take shape by default. Then after you have drawn your basic GA, do a detailed, but a rough weight estimate.

Until you do these, you're chasing down details which have very little overall importance, except for making a good "debate"!

 

I have done this and can layout the GA just fine. What I can't do is put everything in the profile view when I go with a bridge clearance of 11' and a draft of only 4'6". Things just look wrong and the weight is to light. There is just not enough boat there for ocean work.

Now what I have not done is give up the smaller French Canals and the Canadian canals. If I do that I can go with a bridge clearance of 15 feet at the top of the fly bridge and a water draft of just under 6'. I would bet I can fit things in and have it look right. I could also go with a single engine.

At that there isn't anything else that I would have a problem with including the larger EU canals, the ICW and Bahamas.

 

how about this

http://search.boatshop24.co.uk/13027685-Laurent-Giles-70-ft-Motor-Yacht.html

 

The Master license Ocean does not solve the prob! I hold a unlimited, commercial Masters license and I am not allowed to operate ANY motorized craft above 5hp on inland waterways! A special license for leisure craft up to 15meter is required. Above 15 m one has to prove several thousand (I don´t remember) miles of experience on small craft and some on larger craft. Then one can subscribe for lessons to get the license up to 24 m. Above that, a fully, commercially acquired set of competence is needed to get a commercial license on Inland waterways.
But that is not enough!!!! Each and every single river requires a additional, proven frame of experience, acquired as crew on such vessels! Otherwise a paid skipper is needed.

There was a reason why I recommended two boats! And it was not to sell them. Though that might be not the worst idea too.......at least I know the business from both ends.

Regards
Richard

 

Amazing.

 

Richard, this is a bit of a hijack so feel free to respond via PM (or not at all) but I'd be interested in knowing what the requirements are for the below 15m licence. I've read of people taking their yachts (after removing the masts) through the European canals, didn't realise you'd need a separate licence to do it. Here in Australia my recreational boat licence enables me to operate power driven vessels up to 20m LOA (IIRC) provided I'm not carrying passengers for hire.

Thanks.

PDW

 

That sounds like the rules for commercial boats. For private leisure craft in France you need a 'Permis Plaisance', which you can get after answering 25 questions about navigation rules, and a 3 hour practical. This is good for any boat up to 20m. Then you need the 'Extension Grande Fluviale', which will allow you to captain any pleasure boat. This only requires a practical training of 9 hours (on a boat of >20m).

Alternatively, you can navigate a foreign-registered vessel in France for up to 6 months if you have a International Certificate of Competence, and pass the 'CEVNI' test. You can do them in English, which might be easier.

With either of these, you're good for pretty much anything west of the Rhine. (ie Belgium, Luxembourg and France). If you need to use the Rhine, you can take on a pilot.

 

Due to the fact that the OP is interested in cruising the European inland waters, I don´t see a hijack here.
First, there are different rules in the EU countries. But you always have to come through Germany when cruising the inland waterways. Therefore I focussed on the most important (and stringent) German rules. And I am not familiar with the French for example.
Below 15m you just need a sportboat license for inland waterways, simple, cheap and easy to make in about 3 weeks.
Above 15m just forget it.
I have seen a few Dutch craft up to 20-22 m on rivers and canals, never another flag, not even German.
But the Dutch have much less of a problem than others, they are familiar with the German language and they are very familiar with inland waterways, they have a lot.

Regards
Richard

Thank you for that!
(one shall not open a thread and reply after one hr. like I did)

No I was not talking commercial craft, why should I.
I know it is a bit easier in France, but cruising Europe always goes through Germany. And there you are not as easy away with it. For example we have no 20m limit. And Rhine, Mosel, Danube and Elbe require different permissions. One has to know the river, and one has to prove that. Or have a commercial pilot. (valid above 15m only)
Above 24m it all gets completely commercial, no way round.

 

... unless you come from the Atlantic, English Channel, North Sea or the Mediterranean Sea, in which case France or Belgium will be the preferred point of entry.

You really don't need to go into Germany unless you want to go to the Black Sea or Baltic.

 

One could discuss which way would be the preferred one, definetively coming from the North Sea makes the Rhine the preferred choice. But that is not the point. Half of the European river and canal systems are in Germany, so, cruising European inland waterways of course includes these systems.

 

Michael Porter in Maine designed his own live aboard canal cruiser....had her built too....bloody ugly mess if you ask me.......

http://www.mp-marine.com/voyager.html

 

A PassageMakerLite would just about work for this, if it had a collapsible wheelhouse:
http://www.passagemakerlite.com/designs/passagemakerlite-80

My choice would be a Bommelaer (see attachements). Their 1900 model is maybe a bit small for your requirements, but will fit down a canal and is built to RCD Category A. The 1900BW is more of a sea-going boat, but is a bit too wide - you need a combination of these two boats. They are made by http://www.jettenyachting.nl/Bommelaer/03/index.php

 

There is a smaller passagemaker in TAD´s magic cylinder that might fit too.

The Bommelaer does not! No matter how often you try to sell it here, it is NOT a boat for ocean passages!

Tad,

Porters boat has the right name at least: "Barbara" it looks barbaric.

 

At a DWL length of 78', beam of 15'6", and draft of 4'0". Mid section area is roughly 31.74 sq ft. 78' * 31.74 = 2475 cubic ft.

12 knots and 78' is a S/L of 1.36, best CP about .62-.63. So 2475 * .62 = 1534 cubic ft. or 98,200 pounds in salt water. That's very close to the full load weight of Windhorse and roughly in your target range.......

 

Well, this really is a hijack, so I apologise and will be brief...
That 20m thing didn't sound correct to me, and since I regularly helm a vessel in excess of this, I thought it prudent to check to make sure there haven't been any changes...
According Marine & Safety Tasmania, the only restriction on operating a recreational craft in Tasmania, is that if it is powered by more than 4hp, it must be registered. There is no size limit on recreational powerboat licenses

Oh - and back on topic...
Given the size and cost of your project Pierre, surely it would be wise to consult with a qualified person along the way....