Designing Pocket Cruiser, Need lines to study

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by MikTigger, Dec 5, 2008.

  1. MikTigger
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    MikTigger New Member

    I'm new to the forum (and forums in general). I have been searching the internet for line drawings for "pocket cruisers" without much luck. The basic idea is about a 30' max LOA, as wide as possible, and the looks of a Bermuda Sloop, or old Brigantine. Somewhere around the 1700's to mid 1800's look. (Tall Ships, Square Riggers, etc.) Mostly I need a decent hull design to base the rest of my ideas on. Commercial building architecture is my profession, so I'm no stranger to design. (Though I know boats have hydrodynamic requirements that I'm not familiar with) I plan to hire someone to engineer and do the final design of the entire boat. But I need a place to start. It seems people hold on to their line drawings pretty tightly. The Amigo has the best freeboard I've seen so far. Otherwise, I like the looks of the Shpountz(s). Any Suggestions?
     
  2. amolitor
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    amolitor Junior Member

    Chappelle

    Try Howard Chappelle's books.

    American Small Sailing Craft and Boat Building at least both contain good lines drawings. Well, good for study purposes, I should say. I wouldn't try to build from them, they're just too darn small!
     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    But I need a place to start.

    Start with existing boats designed as you desire.

    It is very doubtful that your requirements are so specific that existing boats wont fit the bill.

    Since designing boats isn't your hobby , you just need a specific "look", fear not there will be hundreds to chose from.

    FF
     
  4. Eric Sponberg
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    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    Look to the designs of Lyle Hess which are modeled on the Bristol Channel Cutter type. Lyle, who died a few years ago, designed Serafyn and Taleisin for Lynn and Larry Pardey who are great sailors and writers. They have written a number of books on voyaging in small boats detailing their adventures. Serafyn is about 24' long, Taleisin about 30'. Lyle also designed the boats for the Samuel L. Morse Company, also a Bristol Channel cutter and a Falmouth cutter. This company was in Costa Mesa, CA, years ago, but has gone through a few owners, and it is now located in Port Townsend, WA.

    http://www.samlmorse.com/

    I had a client years ago who was trying to build a 40' Lyle Hess design on a production basis, and he got as far as building the plug and most of the mold. My client died of cancer before he finished the project. But the plug and mold may still be available in southern California, near where the Sam Morse company was.

    Try those sources for inspiration on your new design. And when you get further along and need a naval architect, feel free to give me a call.

    Regards,

    Eric
     
  5. MikTigger
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    MikTigger New Member

    Thanks so far guys. Those look like some good books. I'll certainly buy them. Don't worry, I wouldn't try to build anything from a small picture in a book or anything off the internet. I know how that goes in my profession. Mostly I need to know how to run with the ideas I already have. (without taking hydrodynamics classes) I like the late 1600s to late 1700s ships I've seen that have a more rounded deck toward the bow, giving it somewhat of a belly up front. This will give me plenty of room inside, but I don't know how efficient this design is. The Bristol Channel Cutter has a nice profile, but is too "sharp" for my taste. I'll scan a few of my sketches and see if I can post them. Eric, I have friends in St. Augustine. Looks like I have two reasons to take a trip now. I'll be down there again this summer. If I can't get my sketches to post, I'll email them to you.
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    MicTigger, the efficiency of those old merchant craft weren't especially impressive, nor was their stability.

    You should work in concert with a designer so you can incorporate the current requirements of a modern vessel, while continuing the essence of the era you desire. The result will be a more efficient hull form, that looks like what you want, unless you happen to be a naval architecture historian and can spot the differences and more importantly it will be a much more functional craft.

    You'd do well to read Chapelle's "The History of American Sailing Ships" just to give you an idea of the many possibilities of differing craft and rigs. Accurate historical records of pre revolutional era craft are quite sketchy, but some Admiralty records can be expected to be reasonably accurate. The Smithsonian Institute also would be a good source for vessel lines and plans.

    Narrow down your search and refine you requirements as the 1600 to late 1700's has dozens of rigs, ship types and configurations to select from. None of these vessels will be particularly desirable compared to say a late 1800's vessel, when sailing was in it's "golden age" and hull and rig refinements had developed fairly rapidly.

    You'll find these old (1600 - 1700's) merchant craft overly burdened monsters to handle, sail and crew. A point to ponder in regard to these antique vessels is that 50% of them where lost at sea. That's right, all hands, stores, ship and cargo was little more then a flip of the coin toward a sucessful venture. You see, values for life, limb, even ship and cargo aren't what they are today. A business man hated to lose a ship and cargo, but the men where expendable for the most part. Most business men divided up their cargo shipments among several ships, knowing that at least some of it would eventually make it to port. It was a simple business decision. Why lose it all on one ship, when your odds where so poor, so use multiple ships so that all isn't lost with one sinking.

    Are you referring to Daniel Bombigher's Shpountz? I know of three designs he calls a Shpountz, one is a Bermudian rig ketch and the other two gaff schooners, none of which would be remotely era accurate in hull form or rig selection. These are late 19th century centerboard hull shapes.

    [​IMG]

    Like this 44' version above.

    This is the type of vessel I think you're looking for (below). It's a early 1700's sloop, about 70 on deck, 22' beam. She carried a gaff mainsail, triple headsails and a square course with topsail. This is the classic "cod's head" underwater shape (bluff bow) that you mentioned. This would have been typical of late 1600's to pre-revolution era craft.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Eric Sponberg
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    Eric Sponberg Senior Member

    Roger that. When you are ready to send me something, contact me privately and we can carry on from there.

    PAR offers good advice in reading Chapelle's book. Also, bluff bowed boats do not sail well at all. They may look quaint, but you are not going to go too far in them, at least, not easily or quickly. There are reasons why modern craft are pointy at the front end, a trend, as PAR says, that began with the clipper ships of the 1800s.

    A good case study in modern (last 40 years) yacht design is the Westsail 32. Back in the 70s, this was offered as the be-all to end-all offshore sailing boat. It was modeled on the Colin Archer type of double-ended lifeboats from northern Europe. A lot of them were sold and many have done extensive voyages. But they are bluff bowed, heavy, and under-canvased, and while very safe, roomy and comfortable, they are not particularly agile sailors. Those are your considerations. Since most of the lackluster performance of the Westsail 32, in my opinion, was due to her undersized rig, one could conceivably buy one second-hand and modify the rig to something more substantial, and at the same time be rather classic looking. There might be a number of options.

    When you want to discuss more in detail, let me know.

    Regards,

    Eric
     

  8. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I was trying to be nice Eric, but you're right, these old "cod's head" designs were real sailing slugs.

    Another point Eric touched lightly is the "pointy end on the front". Amazingly enough, this was a revelation in yacht design and slow to catch on. The schooner yacht America (the one the cup is named after) was one of the nails in the coffin of older hull form types, but this was well after the refinement in some circles of the "sharp ended model". This sharp ended model is easily seen when comparing the lines of say a 1830's Baltimore clipper or pilot schooner with a common freight carrier of similar era. It's very easy to see how the sharp ended form was easier to motivate.

    Well, merchants resisted this hull form, partly because it lacked as much interior volume as the previous models, but it's much greater speed potential eventually won over the saltiest of business owners. When a sharp ended vessel could make two crossing of the Atlantic in the same time as the bluff bowed brother freighter could in one, well it became a business decision.

    It took about 100 years for the sharp ended model to gain full acceptance. The British were quick to see the advantages, after capturing the USS President (44 gun frigate) and other, later built pilot schooners, but most were stuck firmly in their own biases about shape.
     
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