designing for legal size/weight/crew/captaining limits

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by big_dreamin, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. big_dreamin
    Joined: Jan 2014
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    big_dreamin Junior Member

    Thank you for not insta-ridiculing my entire thread btw. :)

    I'll try and narrow down my own thinking a little better seeing whether the picture gets clearer. I may not be accurately talking about what I have in mind for charter either.

    I always wanted to and planned to build my own dream house long term. (I've built cabins and garages and stuff before, hoping to build my first house starting in two years, after which 'the dream house' hopefully starts.)

    Given that a catamaran is almost like a house on two hulls, the extra work of a house that floats is not orders of magnitude more. Given my dreaming of the sea since a young age the two ideas have gotten merged into "instead of a dream house it will become a dream yacht".

    The primary use is for the family but that may be 60% with 40% of things hoping that there are ways it can also make money on the side. The boat would get built even if it's 100% used by family - this is just seeing is there any design compromises worth making that could possibly pay for themself plus provide a side income? Maybe it can haul some cargo (maybe even designed to take a half or single full sealand container from place to place), maybe it can have some occasional paying passengers, or maybe the use of the whole boat can be rented out as long as i'm still the captain since i'll keep an eye on it. That part is not very clear but what i'm brainstorming ideas for.

    I'm not sure if the best use is having people go blue water fishing, finding nice beaches to camp on, do ecotourism of some sort/chasing whales off the coast, that's pretty open. But it's clear that the #1 purpose of the boat is not being made exclusively for this use - it's being primarily being built for family use as our floating wandering retirement location. IF the boat can actually make money on the side, great! If it makes so much money that it starts to interfere with the primary purpose of being our house - i'm pretty sure the income would readily pay for another boat to take over those duties.

    So in a way it's like a low risk "attempting multiple small side businesses" project if that makes sense? "Have boat will travel", once I have a boat that will let me do multiple things as well, I can take the risk at low marginal cost. It doesn't cost much to stick up a shingle in Costa Rica and offer ecotours - if that goes bust, maybe i'm sticking up a different shingle in Panama and offering blue water fishing on the same boat. If both those fail i'm out nothing - wanted the boat anyways, built with my own two hands to keep, low risk trials at multiple business niches to see if I can make it work. Fully expect "most" things to fail - that's business statistics - am okay with that. Owning the boat I built myself lets me pick myself back up by my bootstraps and try something else even in a different country entirely.



    That all being said yes I understand that five times the passengers means five times the income for a worker on board like the chef or anyone. I'm just starting from the assumption that every big market is going to already be dominated by some big players in the industry. I'm not going to be in the $200k/week charter range - if I could get 12 people paying $2000 for a week i'd be pretty happy. Doing a couple of trips like that per year pretty much pays for a nice retirement income - I dont have to work the boat as hard as someone who had it custom built and financed out. If I got more work than I expected doing this it justifies building a bigger boat and at some point hiring other people to do it once the market size is identified - whatever I build wouldn't be expected to take everything all the way. It just lets me dip my toe in a couple of possible retirement income streams to find something that works well.

    EDIT: Trying to bring things back to the original core. I'm looking to design a boat that is capable of 'working' multiple potential income options at a starting level to let me test multiple markets and capable of doing the job running what I brung. Since all those jobs have to be an extension of what the 'houseboat' catamaran is to begin with, that's going to favor either moving some people (roomy cabins easier in a catamaran, just build wider) or lighter weight cargo - that could include fast cargo since catamarans can be made to move fast with tolerable efficiency. (if someone wants me hauling things that spoil quickly at 30 knots between islands that's doable, hauling iron ore is not) If any of them actually justify a full time vessel being funded (something like an uncommon route the big boys wont touch but I can run at a competitive rate by not being too big and not being too small) the boat i'm building is just used until the replacement is available.

    EDIT: My minimum size is probably 80 feet with a 24 foot beam that i'd even consider, my ideal sizes are dreaming of more like 120-160 feet long and 32-45 feet wide. Larger could be possible/this is just an open ended exploration of whats viable and what isnt. Favoring few decks because of the weight added - easier to go larger and wider than it is to add heavy construction to get multiple levels - thats actually what I already did! Maybe 2 decks if an 80 footer, maybe 3 decks if bigger but still might be only 2. I like the stability of larger vessels on the seas - i'd rather go to sea with a 120x32 two level catamaran than an 80x24 four deck catamaran even though both would have about the same area. If I can figure out ways to make the boat work for itself, that could justify going larger in size by itself in the hopes of it being more profitable.
     
  2. CDBarry
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    CDBarry Senior Member

    46 CFR 15 sets manning requirements. It looks like 200 GRT is the limit at which a licensed master is required. Depending on the skill of the designer, this could be a very large vessel given the peculiar conventional tonnage system for US flag vessels.

    As an example, virtually all small passenger vessels are 99.9 GRT but some are quite large, beyond 150 feet or so.

    This all requires some expertise, but check the literature.
     
  3. DCockey
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    DCockey Senior Member

    Voluntary sharing of actual expenses such as fuel, food, beverages and other supplies is allowed within recreational use as of 1993. Trying to profit from carrying passengers is not.
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/2150/text
    Also http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/passengers.htm
     
  4. big_dreamin
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    big_dreamin Junior Member

    So let me take a few guesstimates so far...

    So at 201 GRT even for private use (if it were that huge) a licensed master is required.

    At 1 to 199 GRT I assume if carrying even one paying passenger a licensed master would be required.

    At 1 to 199 GRT with just family and noncompensating passengers I should be okay provided everyone trusts my competence, though this would be within US waters ie great lakes, near coastal territories and such. (What happens if I take off from California to go to Hawaii though since that's an ocean crossing? What happens if I want to go from Florida to Belize?)

    If I wanted the licensed master to be me, it sounds like ALOT of work or time is required as I look through this talk of progression from third mate to second mate to first mate to captain, when it sounds like you need 3 years before you even can get a third mate's license (is this correct?) - so now that I understand that this is the process in the US, that's an example of the kind of "excessive licensing demands" (when this is not really a career and not intended to be fulltime) i'd like to try and work around somehow.

    [EDIT] Am I correct that a charter specific license is required to have ANY paying passengers at all? I saw mention of "6 pack" for 100 GRT but also a "12 pack" license for uninspected 200 GRT vessels - separate mentions of any # of passengers as long as it's an inspected vessel so i'll leave inspected vessel questions separate for now. The main goal was being able to go "just with family" earlier and get all my time in on "my" yacht (not renting or captaining someone else's or having to work for others) until the time is done. But i'm not even sure if time aboard a recreational/private boat counts, vs having to be 'merchant marine'/working for others as their crew. If someone can clarify would be appreciated... i'm still learning the terminology and such.

    [EDIT] I see talk of oceangoing requiring a 200 GRT license anyways to do charter use for ocean - but it sounds like 6 minimum years of 24/7/365 seagoing time would be required to be a captain of a 200 GRT license for charter use. So i'm thinking this may be more than I will be able to do any time soon unless there are other options. (since the 'charter' and such wasnt planned to happen within US waters/territories though could another country license the same? how does that work if so?) An example future use might be stationing out of costa rica, then taking people out to go whale watching, or going to choice beach camping spots in belize and venezuela for a week then returning to costa rica.

    In any case it looks like pretty big changes happen at 100 GRT and 200 GRT, and between "0 passengers" (family and bill sharing friends only), 6 passsengers, 12 passengers, and "over 12 passengers"/inspected vessel required. It's mostly mapping out those 'big change' points that i'm trying to do here so i'm making progress.

    What kind of crew is required on vessels with a licensed Master anyways? Besides the captain, who else has to be licensed under what conditions? (along with the requisite experience)

    Please correct any misunderstandings I have.

    EDIT: just adding to previous post to stay neater, as a specific example of something I ran across which confused me http://gcaptain.com/forum/professio...ional-require-1600-ton-licenses-offshore.html talks of international 'yachts' having 12 passenger charters on 1000+ ton vessels with just a licensed captain of the boat with what sounds like a fraction of the required seatime of any USCG licensing. This is an example of what i'd like to understand more about/if that's how it really works.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  5. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    The major shifts occur at 1 paying passenger, this requires a 6pac, then at more than 6 passengers which requires a tonnage license suitable for the vessel. The major change at >6 is that the vessel must be inspected.

    But this is just scratching the surface. Call anyinsurance company and ask them what they require to insure a charter yacht of 80'. The licensing requirements are trivial compared to what insurance will require.

    As an example, the 70' racing sailboat I worked on had four full time paid crew, three of us had 100 ton licenses or bigger the fourth had a 6 PAC and was working on a tonnage license. Of the four of us, the Captain was the only one the insurance company would insure while sailing, the mate was insured for motoring only. Legally any of us could have taken the boat out, but the insurance companies wouldn't allow it.

    What you will need for an 80' cat is pretty much a very experienced captain with a 100 ton license (though it will likely be larger). You will also probably have an engineer, chef/steward, and at least one deck hand. You could probably eek by without the engineer, and easily add a second engineer and second stew.

    A normal crew for a private yacht this size would be a captain married to the chef, and one additional hand as permanent crew, and additional hired as needed for the season.


    You keep coming back to the license requirements, but they are trivial to be honest. It's the insurance that really drives these decisions not regulatory requirements. The Regis drive the design, not the crewing.
     
  6. big_dreamin
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    big_dreamin Junior Member

    I thought I had read something about '12 pack' allowing uninspected vessels as well for over 100 GRT..


    Probably "too much" but the difference is i'm not designing the yacht around insurance requirements but about legal/captaining/crew limits. (unless there is actually reason to try and do so, though I assume that insurance classifications will be subservient to the dominant legal categories existing like 100grt, 200grt, 500grt, 1600grt, unlimited) It's also only going to be insured for part time use, and I assume it's just a cost of doing business.

    Unless youre saying the insurance is so extraordinarily high that it dwarfs the cost of even hiring everyone for every position. Even in non US countries. (since the US is so sue happy about everything that it's part of the reason I have reduced interest of even attempting anything while still in the US, I think it will just be a private vessel while in the US or along the coasts)

    Speaking of which I found this document helpful http://www.coastalvitalityproject.o...nses-and-Endorsements-in-the-US-Maritimes.pdf though there's still plenty I don't yet understand. I see mentions of 1000hp and 4000hp too, was wondering if that creates two more separately licensed or tested categories to be aware of. (like for a higher HP larger planing cat with four outboards or something near the 1000hp level)


    Well what i'm wondering and hoping is whether I could get that experience myself in private time (while the boat is exclusively for private use) to then transfer to the part time passenger stuff for the 'partial/light retirement' phase.

    A few things i'm realising include GRT is smaller than I thought. If I understand correctly a 100 GRT vessel with 10,000 cubic feet of permanently enclosed space would be exceeded by a a catamaran with a 55 foot long deck, 24 feet wide, with 8 foot ceilings on a single deck if enclosed - requiring a 200 GRT license to pilot. This is making me wonder if longer term plans would require a 500 GRT license for instance for decent enclosed space on a long and wide cat.

    The quirks of international law (and the plan to have all passenger carrying revenue generation away from the US anyways - carribean or south pacific mostly) sound like it's FAR less burdensome to consider building or designing around those requirements and to possibly reflag the vessel in the future with that in mind. That said, i'd like to know a resource for those international requirements similar to the PDF I found for US ones. (and re-re-flagging back to the US after I got years more of experience is not out of the question, it just seems a burdensome starting point for what would otherwise be relatively simple operations IMHO. I just mean if I can safely pilot my own 80 foot yacht to and from a destination with my family's LIFE relying on whether or not i'm competent, it is not orders of magnitude different to bring someone paying - in no way am I implying or saying I want to go to sea with inadequate experience or knowledge here, just so there's no misunderstanding.)

    One thing i'm wondering out loud due to the quirks of how GRT seems to be calculated is a boat alteration letting me "qualify" for different GRT licenses over time. Like leaving half the boat as an open deck to come in at 99 GRT with the plan to permanently enclose it in the future so it would then qualify as a higher rated vessel. Yes that's gaming the system a little bit, but it's a slightly arbitrary system when GRT doesn't take length or weight into direct consideration already anyway.



    Yeah a crew of at least four was what I was hoping to design around, possibly 6-7 at a larger size depending on certain life circumstances that could have interested parties coming with us as a form of extended family long term. Of which one is already an engine mechanic (just not on boats yet, cross adapting shouldn't be too difficult, but again i'm just concerned with whats "legal" first) and one's a SCUBA instructor.


    If you can point me to things pertaining to all boats (ie not just lawsuit prone and oppressive US regulations) i'm all ears. I just figured knowing the legal classes was at least step one of a process if the idea is for me to work my way up to captaining something moving other people around.

    My understanding is still that if I have 0 paying passengers (which will be the case at the beginning) though requirements are very relaxed as long as it's under 200 GRT though, correct? I hope to build most of my hours in that state for years before heading south.
     
  7. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    In the US 12 pack applies only to the US Virgin Islands. In Europe they have a rule for 12 or less passengers, but I don't know the details.
     
  8. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    Ike, do you know what license is required for the master of an uninspected US flag vessel over 100 GRT in US waters carrying up to 12 passengers for hire?
     
  9. abosely
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    abosely Senior Member

    If I understand correctly, any uninspected US vessel is limited to 6 passengers, with the exception of in the BVI only, to let US flagged vessels compete with the British flagged vessels. The British flagged vessels can take up to 12 passengers on an uninspected vessel vs the US vessels max of 6 passengers, other than in the BVI.

    Cheers, Allen
     
  10. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    US flagged uninspected vessels less than 100 GRT are limited to 6 passengers for hire, but over 100 GRT are limited to 12 passengers for hire. This is true in all US waters, though there is an alternative rule for the USVI.

    USCG page: https://www.uscg.mil/pvs/UPV.asp
    Generally, operations that carry 6 or fewer passengers for hire, using vessels less than 100 gross tons, are referred to as Uninspected Passenger Vessels (UPV), 6 Passenger (pax), or "6 pack" operations. Vessels 100 gross tons or over may carry up to 12 passengers and still be classified as a UPV.

    USCG publication of requirements for uninspected vessels over 100 GRT but less than 300 GRT carrying up to 12 passengers for hire but not carrying freight for hire. https://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/UPV_Over100GT_Guide_2015.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  11. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    USCG news release on special rules allowing up to 12 passengers for hire for vessels up to 79 feet in overall length operating from the USVI if they meet certain UK codes.
    http://www.uscgnews.com/go/doc/4007...d-passenger-vessels-in-the-U-S-Virgin-Islands

    Section 319 of the recently enacted “Howard Coble Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2014” amended the law concerning Uninspected Passenger Vessel operations for vessels in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Under this amendment, vessels less than 79 feet in overall length may now have the option of carrying a maximum of 12 passengers, if the vessel complies with the requirements established by the United Kingdom (U.K.) Code of Practice for the Safety of Small Commercial Motor or Sailing Vessels which is commonly known as the Yellow Code (for motor vessels) or the Blue Code (for sailing vessels).

    These rules only apply to vessels operating from the USVI and not visiting any other US ports.
     
  12. Ike
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    Ike Senior Member

    David and Allen answered your question
     
  13. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Dreamin,

    Technically yes you can get the time on your vessel and then change the business plan to have the vessel inspected and carry more passengers LEGALLY.

    But your insurance company won't let you. They will want to see a long work history in the maritime field with a claims history, decades of USCG drug testing, and secondary qualifications. An insurance company is simply not going to insure a $5 million dollar asset in the hands of someone who got their license last week for the carriage of high dollar passengers for hire.
     
  14. big_dreamin
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    big_dreamin Junior Member

    Okay thank you, in the worst case I suppose it could either do bareboat charter (though that's not at ALL a first choice though if insurance pays for a total loss, oh well) or "just hire a proper captain" especially due to the infrequent nature of doing the ecotours or whatever the boat ends up doing.

    The most important thing is that I can skipper the boat myself for private use, and have the boat (ideally me too, but doesn't have to be) do dual purpose for a series of small business maritime startups attempting various niches with less commitment than would be normal. If the cost to get myself all the proper time to captain it for other people exceeds what it costs to just hire someone, I hire someone. Though might still try to crew up from the family all roles under captain and still slowly build up personal hours.

    Is the insurance issue the same oppressive level outside the US though? I keep reading US people griping about foreign flag laws, ie relinked from above http://gcaptain.com/forum/professio...ional-require-1600-ton-licenses-offshore.html - "How is it rational to require 1600-ton licenses to go offshore.....while allowing 1,000+ ton foreign-flagged "private yachts" to continue to cruise the world with 12 charter guests and no other licenses other than a captain. For example, the COI of these boats say something to the effect that these boats must only be manned by an "adequate crew". The proposed changes will require a US 200-ton mate to have 1080 days of sea time, while a MCA-approved CAPTAIN of a comparable vessel will still need only FIFTY-FIVE days of sea time."

    I'm assuming people doing that have to be getting insurance too, so is it different under flags of convenience somehow?


    Starting to get the picture better, thank you. That being said it doesn't kill the plan, just alters it. (as above - either hire a captain or consider international flagging and insurance options since the goal was never US waters anyways except possibly if allowed arrival/departure from the same starting location)



    Bringing back to my original topics and interests - it's looking like a design goal of 79 feet length and either 6 or 12 passengers (depending on GRT of the vessel, meaning I either design to come in under or over 100, or like I said see if I can "convert" the boat later in life by enclosing previously open space) as a sample if I want to do design around this criteria. If not read originally i'm talking catamarans/i'm aware 12 passengers in a monohull be a tight squeeze.

    Other than tonnage i'm wondering if there are any other length considerations for going over 79 feet in the future (with a different boat, modifying the boat, or anything else). I'm curious where the next step up is, even if it's in the megayacht category (though I already consider anything over about 90 feet to be a megayacht) where a convergence of factors seems to strongly suggest "stay JUST under X length because of all these reasons!"
     

  15. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    There is NO magic in boating.

    First technical :

    The speed of a boat is roughly proportional of the square root of waterline length. The power needed is proportional to the displacement.

    The "basic" boat.

    http://www.vripack.com/portfolio/ned-70

    Guessed at 35 tons displacement. although the name is 70, it is 19.47m length. (64 ft).
    Does 15 kts + with twin 300 hp.

    More volume boat 1.

    Side by side : http://www.lagoon-motoryachts.com/630my_fr.php

    Same displacement as the NED 70. Fuel burn and performance not significantly better. http://www.4venti.com/public/lagoon_630my/fiches_essais_moteur_lagoon_630my.pdf

    You will understand that with more hull and deck surface, and internal comfort, and the same displacement, the boat cannot be as strong as the basic monohull, or will need much more expansive technology to be built. BTW Lagoon 630MY is built in sandwich infusion.

    You will also understand that being nearly twice beamier, marina accessibility and marina fees can be problematic in some conditions.

    More volume boat 2.

    Stacked : http://gamma-yachts.com/it/gamma20.html

    Double deck. You can only do this by increasing the hole in the water, and putting some weight for the stability. The Gamma 20 has somewhat the same length and beam as the basic boat. But nearly twice the displacement. Unsurprisingly, it needs nearly twice the power (2 * 575hp) the reach about the same speed. Building is not critical, because displacement increased much more than hull/deck surface.

    Now, it depends up to you, if you want more volume than the basic hull, on how to pay for this additional volume.

    The additional fuel burn is the price for the double deck, but you can control it with the speed throttle by reducing speed. The more expensive building process and marinas fees is the additional cost for the side by side hull.

    In one case, you are not exactly choosing the speed you go, on the other, you are not exactly choosing where you go mooring... It is up to you to choose.
     
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