designing for legal size/weight/crew/captaining limits

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by big_dreamin, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    In my country, Spain, to skipper a recreational boat, you always need a license. They come in various categories, with increasing difficulty, which enable you to an ever bigger boat.
     
  2. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    In the US technically you don't need a license if you are the paid captain. But try convincing your insurance company of it.

    Personally I am of the optinion that anyone getting paid as a captain should be able to get at least a 6-pac or they really don't have the experience anyway, the license is trivial to acquire.
     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    It's the same reason there is an entire class of 99 Tonn crew and service vessels, they are the maximum size before you need the next larger captains license.

    One unique method of "complying" with the USCG rule is to use the coasties antique measurements against them/

    The vessels "length" is measured to the rudder post , so putting the rudder 20-30 ft inboard from the back of the vessel does the trick.

    Come to NYC and visit a dinner cruise boat to see how it handles in 3-5K of tide.
     
  4. abosely
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    abosely Senior Member

    This thread has been an informative and beneficial thread for me. At first I thought it was going to become a snarky type of comment type thread.

    But has been a good thread, thanks guys. :)

    I didnʻt know about the OUVP 6 Pack and Master Near Coastal licenses. Iʻll get my 6 Pack license when I have the required sea time logged and then upgrade to the Master 25 Near Coastal when I have accumulated the sea time required for it.

    I donʻt really need the licenses, but having a specified skills learned and the tests passed would be beneficial, practical knowledge to have. It will be satisfying to have learned and then passed the tests for my own personal benefit.

    Cheers, Allen
     
  5. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    That could not be right but it depends on what length you are talking about, among the various lengths that normal regulations are referring to.
    In general the "length" is measured on the deck or on a waterline at a certain depth. Another is the LOA measured between the end points of the hull (with certain exceptions). The "length between perpendiculars" is the only one measured from the rudder stock.
     
  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The length between perpendiculars is from the stem head to the sternpost.
     
  7. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I suppose you want to correct your mistake. Think a little bit.
    Assuming that is correct, it is not, how high is it measured?. As you know well, the depth to which the boat's dimensions are measured is often important.
     
  8. CatrigCat
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    CatrigCat Junior Member

    I thought LOA was the shortest length between perpendiculars that the boat with all the bolt on parts removed, would fit in.
    Swim platforms, rudders, anchors etc. do not add to the LOA.

    Pictured is an FPB 64 with a bolt-on swim platform that is not included in the LOA.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Some length definitions by Lloyd's Register Special Service Craft Rules and ISO standards for small crafts.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    I think you are confusing with LH (Length Hull) (LH per ISO definition)

    "This length excludes removable parts that can be detached in a non-destructive manner and without affecting the structural integrity of the craft, e.g. spars, bowsprits, pulpits at either end of the craft, stemhead fittings, rudders, outdrives, outboard motors and their mounting brackets and plates, diving platforms, boarding platforms, rubbing strakes and fenders."

    But

    "This length does not exclude detachable parts of the hull, which act as hydrostatic or dynamic support when the craft is at rest or underway."

    The swim platform you post the photo does provide static and dynamic support. So its length should NOT be removed for LH.
     
  11. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Different regulations. The stern extension on the FPB was added in such a way that it doesn't extend the boat for Alaska Pilotage requirements. So the vessel can operate without a local pilot. I don't have the exact wording of the rule however.
     
  12. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "The "length between perpendiculars" is the only one measured from the rudder stock."

    Just what the USCG measures, when calculating vessel tons.
     
  13. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I would not be completely sure about that. Should investigate a little further. The volume located aft of the aft perpendicular is also of interest to Administrations when calculating gross tonnage.
     
  14. big_dreamin
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    big_dreamin Junior Member

    I agree, and I hope it continues with more anecdotal responses and stuff, since this is really just a testing the waters by dipping my toe into it, not an in depth "got to know" research project right now.

    Mostly i'm really curious about where the crossover point occurs from a level of training and licensing cost which is feasible for a busy professional individual (in another unrelated field, OR in something which may cross over into boatbuilding but not boat captaining/chartering yet) to get on their own sort of like a private pilot's license is had after 40 hours airtime plus your ground school - that's not excessive, even if insurance is dodgy til youre in the air a few hundred hours and keep it up with 100hr/year level minimum pilot hours.

    There may be a dream of "having and captaining your own yacht of LARGE size" (maybe i'm building it, and maybe yes I can afford the up front cost of building it) but at some point it becomes unfeasible due to running costs or the burden of ongoing training and such to stay active. I know the yearly costs of megayachts for rich people are an absolute killer... it's not just the 6mil up front but 10% of that per year or even worse of running costs.

    I'm just wondering how feasible a strategy is of investing into my own 'megayacht' (treated as a houseboat up on lake superior with an eventual goal of traveling to other countries and even transoceanic in the future) while minimizing those yearly expenses. (as said family and friends as crew, and maybe doing something else to minimize fuel costs - for all you know i'm running it on veggie oil and own a chain of restauraunts like those car guys :^) )

    At some point the next size increase becomes difficult due to regulatory burden - too many hours study, too many hours constant practice to stay in 'good terms' because the boat is deemed that much harder to safely handle. I have no disagreement with that concept, just want to know where those points are since I don't know whether i'd (in theory/for discussion purpose) build an 80 footer or a 120 footer or a 240 footer or a 320 footer in the ultimate long term - i'd probably build whatever the budget allowed up front if the 'houseboat' isn't leaving the country until retirement but then find i'd painted myself into a corner as insurance is a nightmare without (x) experience on equivalent type. Then at some point after some oceanic journeying whatever country i'm retiring in the (also-houseboat) is already with me there even if I don't take it out much anymore.


    Hoping this provides a little insight into my thinking. (and hoping that doesn't sound too flaky/not suggesting building a huge boat is a trivial task or that I even really plan a 320 footer, i'm just wondering if there's a range of sizes over 80ft that I can viably minimize those running costs and regulatory burdens within, ie 99 tonnage sounds like a big figure apparently but if that's enclosed space maybe I build half of that open decked to avoid that class if i'm a little over for some reason, etc) My name isn't 'big dreamin' for nothing. ;)

    --

    A few mild expansions I guess worth making on my mind.

    Anything suggested HAS to work internationally. It might be flagged a country other than the origin or destination, but in my case i'm starting in the US, hoping to travel multiple world countries, and eventually retire in one of them - like maybe the south pacific or australia or panama or who knows where. If I decide I don't like the future political or economic environment it's alot less hassle to upanchor and move on than to struggle with selling retirement real estate (in what may be a suddenly crashing market) and such. Or just wanting a change of location.

    Part of the interest in "mild charter use" or mild cargo and such amounts to providing a retirement income for myself and my family. I pilot, she cooks, the (grown) kids help when docking and keeping the few other paying guests happy at other times. Not something i'm intending to do "fulltime" or endlessly, more like something where either renting the boat out (with insurance, or with myself as the captain) or doing something like an occasional mild ecotourism setup for a couple of people chartering provides some of the retirement income or secondary bonus income plus free practice staying fresh on all open water skills. Would like part of this to pay for itself - not expecting to make millions with it.

    Furthermore it's something I wouldn't engage in much of any at all UNTIL RETIREMENT - the boat would start as a liveaboard, and only get money making kind of duty later in it's life (and mildly/not in heavy competition here), this is why i'm not seeking full commercial everything. Slowly getting a few relevant license upgrades as I get practice is fine, just like owning your own propeller aircraft building up hours before you can eventually do lighter commerical/for hire use. Owning the aircraft wont pay for itself, but its $100/hr plane rental youre not paying to someone else which adds up over hundreds of hours and which alot of pilots end up doing. I'm looking to do something similar planwise just with a larger boat on an occasional basis.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016

  15. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Dreamin,

    To put a large yacht into charter is a completely different ball of wax type question. At this point regulatory tiers simply aren't a real concern. If the boat is going to be used on the Great Lakes then it needs to be built in the US to an acceptable classification scheme. The labor cost difference between a 100ton and a 250ton license are trivial.

    The real cost in operating a vessel in this class isn't the boat itself it's the labor. At charter rates of >$200,000/week guests expect five star dining, five star service, the boat side of the equation is trivial compared to this.

    Think of it this way, the chef on a large charter yacht can easily make five times more than an entry level 99ton vessel's captain. The Captain on a large charter yacht is going to make substantially more than a 27 year old crew boat captain running steel workboats to the oil fields. Because the captain is being given the keys and responsibility for a multi-million dollar asset, and 12-18 lives (many of those lives make a lot of money and have very good attorneys).
     
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