design verification

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by fadgadget, Nov 4, 2005.

  1. fadgadget
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    fadgadget Junior Member

    Hello over there

    I want to build a 40-50 foot racing dayboat / weekender. Classic lines and modern equipment. Something beautiful to look at, fast and elegant to sail, lets say something like a scaled up dragon.
    I also want to design the boat myself although I am not a naval architect.
    I have already drewn some designs , but never builded any of them. So I don't know if it will sail good or that it is seaworthy...
    I think, to have it designed by an architect is always better, but I am familiar with drafting, designing and 3D CAD, and I would like to do it myself. It just makes more fun to me. So is this although a stupid idea to risk so much money ?

    Is it a good idea to put it into tank testing to have some verification of the design, and what does this cost ?
    Is there software to evaluate this or are there experienced proffesional engineers who can evaluate the design for a reasonable amount of money?
    Or does anyone has a better idea ?
     
  2. chandler
    Joined: Mar 2004
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    chandler Senior Member

    Read,Read, read and just do it
     
  3. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Ask Eric Sponberg - he has a boat - design that will fit 100% - I had a swiss customer once that was highly interested - just then he arrived in some sort of banking problem and the issue was off.
     
  4. tspeer
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    tspeer Senior Member

    I would team up with a NA.

    What you're really doing when you work on your own design is creating a very detailed set of requirements and getting a good understanding of what those requirements mean for the design. It lets you talk to the NA in very concrete terms. If you plan to build the boat yourself, then presumably you will be doing much of the detail design as you go along. The NA can help you figure out these details ahead of time, saving time and cost by smoothing out the build process.

    After all, do you want the best boat you can design, or do you want the best boat you and an experienced NA can design?
     
  5. cyclops
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    cyclops Senior Member

    Save a few lives at sea. Copy a proven design that is very close to what you want. Then modify with the designer. You will not be turning away from the dark clouds every time they appear. Use the designer!!
     
  6. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    This book is intended for people in exactly your position:
    www.cornellmaritimepress.com/3917.htm
    It advocates doing the preliminary design yourself, then taking it to a naval architect for finalization.

    You could try to interest a naval architecture student in working with you as an intermediate step. Ask at:
    www.ocp.tudelft.nl/mt
    www.marin.nl
    www.solent.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/yacht_and_powercraft_design_beng/course_details.aspx
    VPP and CFD computer programs are now good enough to be a better buy than tank testing for analysis and development, in most cases.

    I encourage you to find someone in your area to advise you. In particular, I think you should contact Van de Stadt.

    I've broken down the links below by area.

    Netherlands
    www.stadtdesign.com
    www.sheevra.com/sailing.htm
    www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds609_D.htm
    www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds635_D.htm
    www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds547_d1.htm
    www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds647.htm
    www.gdnp.nl
    www.oossanen.nl
    www.simonis.com

    Northeast U.S.
    www.brooklinboatyard.com
    www.scaranoboat.com
    www.gannonandbenjamin.com
    www.zurnyachts.com/sail.html (note Zurn 53 design)
    www.fontainedesigngroup.com/news/index.asp?ID=12
    www.hinckleyyachts.com (Check out the Hinckley DS 42)
    William C Frank Offshore Yacht Design, 5 Topsail Rd., Rowayton, CT 06853 (no web site)

    Western Canada
    www.tadroberts.ca
     
  7. Robjl
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    Robjl Senior Member

    I use "Principles of Yacht Design" by Larsson & Eliasson and a Cad Program "Prosurf" at www.newavesys.com I think they still have a free download.
    Good luck
     
  8. fadgadget
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    fadgadget Junior Member

    Thanks for the many useful ideas and links

    I just ordered some books about the topic.
    I am afraid that when I take an advisor or NA after I did some design work, that he will like to start over again on his own design. Whether it is good or bad.
    I already experienced this with designing and building my own house. With this I finaly took an architect who drew over the plans and signed them for agreement ( it is part of the law at my place that an architect agrees with the construction ) It costed me a lot of money. So I builded it my way and although some things could be better or in an other way, it is a very good and goodlooking house. I still get some nice compliments every time someone comes to visit.
    I agree with taking a good and experienced advisor from the beginning of the project, someone who can look over my shoulder and prevent me from making mistakes. So I have to find someone who is interested ... ?

    For the moment I am building a dingy ( bought the plans :) )but when this is ready I start on the job
     
  9. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    House architect's are famous for wanting YOU to build and live in their "Personal Statement" , to hope to get another sucker comission.

    Boat designers are quite used to very very experienced owners with specific needs and demands. NO PROBLEM!!

    My problem is with probably a million designs to chose among what is so special and particular that YOU MUST have that isnt already on someones shelf?

    A Great NA will charge about 10% of the total vessels cost ,

    a lot extra if its just a another boat.

    FAST FRED
     
  10. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Fast Fred, 10% I believe is a bit exaggerated - no architects in Holland (or US) - save for Farr & ***., Van de Stadt, Dubois etc. - charge that sort of money.
    Generally in Holland costs are around 2-3% max.

    Where you are right is that when a customer goes to a NA, with a specifical boat in mind, this ( sucker ) client pays the full bill en than you might end at something like 5-8%.

    If you go to Farr, you might rest assured that you will pay for a 20 mtr racing yacht a good USD 1000 BIGS. If I say BIG it is the biggest banknote in the normal exchange. ( Banks do have higher notes for their internal traffic use )
     
  11. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    The first three U.S. links I gave you are design-build operations, not big name design offices. Brooklin Boat Yard already builds a boat similar to what you describe: the W-46. They've built three.

    One thing I wonder is whether starting with the W-46 scantlings & weight study wouldn't be a big time saver. I think it's worth discussing with Robert Stephens. If you can't come to agreement, no harm done.

    Concerning velocity prediction, I'd start with http://www.schwenn.com/ or someone who offers similar services (check with hydrodynamics labs in your area).

    There are engineers who develop scantlings and laminate schedules for other designers. Which one I would recommend depends on the construction method. What material will you be using?
     
  12. chandler
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    chandler Senior Member

    The w46 is a gourgeous boat! If you want to spend a million dollars. Stephen do you think Brooklin Boatyard would sell those plans? Isn't that kind of an in house proprietory plan?
     
  13. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Could be... but it doesn't hurt to ask. Certainly Stephens himself would be free to utilize W-46 information if hired to consult on another project. There are other options, but having some basis for the weight study is important, as is having a starting point on scantlings & other issues.

    Here's a firm that many production builders are turning to for development at a reasonable cost:
    http://www.seaway.si/
    Mark Mills hires out his engineering to John Fox <FCSdesign@compuserve.com>
    Jim Antrim does the engineering for Wylie & others
    Dirk Kramers...
    GMT
    Suppliers like SP Systems & Gougeon Bros...
    Consulting services can be purchased.

    Some things can be learned from studying historical plans, from Herreshoff & others. But it has to be applicable...
     
  14. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I would agree, Fred, if bang for the buck were the only issue. Just find something that is close to what you want, then just purchase the plans.

    But, even if they guy ended up with 'just another boat' from our point of veiw, he would have gone through the life affirming proccess of learning all the compromises needed to come up with a workable boat.

    What we then have here is a sense of empowerment that even the rich really rarely have. How many of them, like us, just follow the leader. The fact that they have a bigger wallet to do so makes little difference in the end.

    Also, the fact that he intends to build the boat himself puts yet another wrinkle in the fabric. The boat will have to be designed around not only his skills to build it, but his favorite matterials as well.

    When I was in school, there was a fellow student who took the course so he could design his own boat. Various learning disabilities made him unable to master some of the basic concepts of the course. After a mighty struggle (he was often there 16 to 20 hours a day) he was forced to withdraw from the course.

    The instructor offered to help him design his boat. I often saw the two of them working together many hours after class (where I was struggling with my own problems) and seing my instructor apply his engineering knowledge, as well his many years of experience in the field, to this young man's dreams was really quite moving.

    I don't know if the boat was ever built. I don't think it really matters.

    What matters is that this young man was able to leave the school with plans for his dream ship in hand rather than a sense of humiliation and failure.

    Bob

    P.S. If this were a union hall, you would be thrown out on your kiester:)
     

  15. fadgadget
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    fadgadget Junior Member

    Hi guys, a part for which I want to do it myself is learning from it and creating something personal. I am a professional product designer, so I am not unexperienced in the design process.
    What do you experienced boatdesigners / builders think is most critical or demanding in the process? Or what items should be given much / or the most attention to, to get a good sailboat?
    It is certainly necessary to involve a NA or someone with a lot of experience into the designing process. Meanwhile I want to learn and study as much as possible on the topic to get it right...
    For building material wood stripbuilding comes as a first choice, GRP sandwich construction as a second.
     
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