Design database

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Robinfly, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

  2. Robinfly
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    Robinfly Junior Member

    This is some serious stuff. I remember a presentation being held at my university but as I was always into small crafts design I didn't pay too much attention.:p
    Do you maybe know if any of this companies are adapting such tools to a small craft design/building process market?
     
  3. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Well isn't that the point of what the OP is asking....to define design parameters that you define...to create a Design?!
    But, he can't do that...because he has no parameters to begin with, ergo, compiling his his database.

    The PLM etc is for detailed production design, not first principals design. BOMs auto pipe lengths etc etc has nothing to do with design, that is a procurement accounting requirement.
    It doesn't tell him what Length of boat he should select for the speed and payload etc

    The software cannot draw a pipe run through a WTB to a pump..if the Design is not defined in the first place, i.e without the Design, one has a blank sheet of paper, so to speak.
    Which is where the OP is... he wishes to go beyond the blank sheet...to create these initial inputs for a Design.

    PLM software doesn't do that, it still requires basic inputs to create all that fancy stuff.

    If i hold my calculator and talk into it....give me the length and beam and engine power for a 20m fishing boat...nothing happened!!
    But....if i input 20 x 35 x 12.50 it gives me the answer nice and quickly. It requires an input to work and solve questions..
    PLM software is a totally different realm of design, it is not not first principles. It is just a very good database of "things" and interaction of these "things" and for a different field within the whole building process called production.... without the "things"... it doesn't answer the OPs question!
     
  4. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I'd imagine an Excel spreadsheet with a column for each parameter, running into hundreds, and a row for each boat, would be very valuable for people to find what was available, when the filters were applied.
     
  5. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    Hello Ad Hoc, you are correct he has no initial parameters. Those will need to be defined while designing each vessel. If you read my full post you'll notice that both 3D CAD + PLM are mentioned. The 3D CAD can define early prototype boats/ships and further refine them while working within (connected to) the PLM environment. This is how most customers work today with 3D CAD and medium/large sized assemblies. The prototypes are 100% digital 3D CAD solid models, and are typically followed up with some integrated CAE (strength, hydrostatic, performance, etc. analysis) before money is committed to hard tooling and materials for an actual prototype. All designs are driven by a top level requirement specification for the vessel. For example, if a steel pipe that runs through the vessel has a unique requirement, you can see the link for that requirement attached to the 3D design model of the pipe. The steel pipe cannot be approved for production until it meets all design requirements.

    The alternative is to do all of the data management tasks manually (e.g. notebook, Excel spreadsheet). For smaller projects this is fine. On the other hand, for medium & large assemblies you'll want to consider a better suite of tools that will save you many, many hours of laborious paper tasks. Time is money.
     
  6. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    And that is the point of his database request... to obtain initial parameters...!!

    As I noted, this is chalk and cheese for what the OP wants.
    He's not after production data management of pipe runs, costings of sheet metal, nuts, bolts etc etc...what has that got to do with obtaining initial parameters to arrive at a basic design.. nothing.
    The PLM etc...is exactly as you say it is... just data management.

    He needs the initial parameters first... can't data manage a blank sheet of paper!
     
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  7. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    He asked for a "design database". Not knowing his resources it does no harm to mention a PLM. That's what they are. They are not just data management. They manage the whole development process. You can modify part parameters in a PLM, which then updates the geometry on the CAD side. Thus, you can actually control key design parameters with them. Imagine updating an MS Excel spreadsheet and opening your CAD model. Like magic your geometry updates. This is possible today with a lot of CAD tools.

    If I were designing a boat today I would surely go that route. @Robinfly what CAD tool are you using?
     
  8. Robinfly
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    Robinfly Junior Member

    Hi @JosephT
    I'm using Rhino.
     
  9. Robinfly
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    Robinfly Junior Member

    @Ad Hoc I collected the initial parameters between existing designs that closely fit the Scope of the current project. In this case a 35' sailboat. With this parameters I built a small excel database. This might work as a starting point. But my initial question here was how to make it in a proper and efficient way. Long term management (Collecting, storing, programming into some kind of in-house parametric archive, etc.) where I could also input my designs data and be able to track it. I believe such database will help me speed up initial stages of future projects. PLM beside other features is actually all about that- Speeding up the design process through almost all stages. @JosephT Correct me If I'm wrong.
     
  10. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Define "proper" and "efficient" as you mean it, in this context.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  11. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Robinfly- Attached is my method. For every Froude number, there are bands of ship types that generally conform to certain ratios and coefficients that work within the band. As I have mentioned earlier, Saunders, Lindblad and Todd, Watson & Gilfillian has published the ratios and coefficients for all bands.

    It does not matter if it is a barge, or leisure boat. There may be exceptions such as workboat or sailing ships but in general, the speed to length ratio or the Froude number is the guiding factor.

    1. An Fn is chosen so that the wavemaking resistance is lowest and "not going up the hill" as indicated in the graph.
    2. With the band chosen, a range of ratios and coefficient is read from Saunders, W&G, Marin, or L&B. L&B will also give you the recommended Cg, Cb, Entrance angle, shape of lines, ect. W&G will give you the optimum Cg location. Saunders will give you the Length to displacement ratio (in Imperial system). I have it all in one speadsheet table.
    3. Reading from the range, I input my ratios to find the length and the displacement desired. Within the range, I analyze the wetted surface area, resistance, powering (on another sheet). From the family of varying ratios and coefficients (again another sheet) I can find what I am looking for such as optimum length, least resistance, or least power. This is generated on the fly. A "family" of ships that will fit the bill.
    4. Given the Ratio and Coefficients, I choose a hull lines and sections from published data. Don't need to draw all. Like drawing on a rubber sheet, I stretch the beam, or depth, or length, then check the displacement. You may call it database but I call it the Parent Hull lines.

    Sorry I could not publish the spreadsheet as this is proprietary for my use but you should get the idea. That is why I said you don't need a database. It exist already.
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    That is correct. If you are seriously aiming to compete in many areas these days a PLM system is a requirement.
     
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  13. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I don't know if the database that, surely, a PLM system needs is the same one that the OP referred to in its initial post.
     

  14. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    For improved boat design using Rhino you might consider Orca3D, which is an add-on product. It has quite a few nice features.

    Orca3D Naval Architecture Software | Marine Design Plug-in for Rhino https://orca3d.com/

    However, I do not see many PLM integrations listed for Rhino or its Orca3D plug-in. Thus, after modeling is complete you may have to convert into other CAD formats that are already integrated to a PLM.

    Ref: Ref: https://www.rhino3d.com/formats/

    From that list, as I recall over the years, the following are integrated into PLM systems.

    e.g.
    • AutoCAD (.dwg)
    • IGES (.igs, .iges)*
    • Microstation (.dgn)
    • Parasolid/NX (.x_t)*
    • SolidWorks (.sldprt, .sldasm)
    • STEP (.stp, .step)*
    * Neutral formats can be converted into NX, Catia, SolidWorks...all of these CAD tools are integrated to PLM already for sure.

    I would suggest researching PLM systems that have experience in the marine industry. That will offer piece of mind as writing a custom integration to a PLM is costly. You are better off using off-the-shelf, proven system that has a stable presence in the market place. Most have features to manage CAD (3D design), CAE (analysis files) and CAM (NC cutting). Thus, you can take your design into a manufacturing environment and start building them in an end-to-end managed environment.

    Best wishes on your project!
     
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