Design Competition

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Stumble, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. W17 designer
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    W17 designer Senior Member

    As the 'Squidly-Diddly' do-it-all boat with sliding seats etc. is a far cry from the original, inexpensive open fishing boat sought by the original poster, perhaps this deserves its own thread. Otherwise, the original concept to help those in need may be hijacked before a good answer is found and that seems a shame to me.
     
  2. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    I'm nuts for anything that can serve an extra function without any added cost or weight, just added design forethought. Such tweaks can be least expensive way to do things.
    Actually, you are supposed to have "pikes" or simple wooden spears to serve as Tee-Pee frame, and the pikes also serve as drag-sled frame, etc.

    But regarding the SUV concept, now I'm thinking leeboards instead of dagger boards to open up hold and make simpler. Leeboards would be the multipurpose planks lashed in place with aid of simple receptacle (couple bumps that stick outside hull on gunnel).

    I'm trying to create magic and figure out something that is BOTH simple and multi-functional. Some notch on the transom that serves equally well to hold a normal rudder for sailing, and a sculling side to side ore (both sitting or standing rower). Doesn't need to be a sliding seat, but should be able to use one, even if its pre-wheels old school "grease bum". Another use for leeboard planks?
     
  3. W17 designer
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    W17 designer Senior Member

    I used to think like that too SD. But over the years, be warned that 'the magic' will disappear as most 'multi-functional' tools end up by doing nothing well. so I'd not push the concept too far. Finding 2 uses for an item is quite possible, but I'd not put too much value in this or it can destroy the overall pleasure of the end product.
    Just my 80+ years of experience ;-))
     
  4. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    quite true about tools. For backpacking tool set I'm ditching the Leatherman and going with kit of individual mini-vise grips, small metal file with little wood handle, little scissors, little fixed blade knife, etc, all "real tools" that can be replaced/upgraded al la carte and don't weight more than Leatherman, and cheaper, too. Lot easier to be able to just give someone a $8 file than let them borrow a $90 Leatherman.
    I'd be happy to have good sails that can easily become a reasonable tent, and good leeboards that can serve as bench/table and hiking-out boards. I'm trying to come up with general layout that could be standard and work with whatever grade or hull material.
    IMO any such boat should have "built into the design" ability to do sail, row, scull or motor, and able to do fishing, cargo, sleep aboard, or passenger all fairly well, and that would be consistent with the "boat for the 3rd world" concept. Also like to be able to use oar(s) as a mast(s) in a pinch.
    They were gonna need to make various corrugations in the metal of the truck bed for strength, so they made them able to accept standard 2X (1.5") lumber to serve as 2 tier or vertical separators.truck bed box design for modifications https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/topic/181940-truck-bed-box-design-for-modifications/ Something like that for the lee-boards. Lee-boards should also drop-in as "dry" raised floor, both to serve as floor and keep extra boards out the way. Once you can use something for a couple different things, it can become cost effective to boost quality. One or two boards could also act as shingles to keep Cuddy area dry. Universal Board, maybe with some hardware, could also be a rudder, or at least should be a straight forward operation to butcher up a board into a replacement rudder.

    I see a lot of mods on boats (outboard hanging off a pure sailing boat, after thought extra tented areas, sailing rigs, rowing rigs and motor brackets on canoes, extended "pods" for outboards on RIBs) and most look like crap and leave me thinking "why didn't someone at least consider someone might want to do that?, It would've been so easy to include provision when design/build was happening."
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  5. W17 designer
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    W17 designer Senior Member

    Sorry SD, but I personally think the compromises you suggest are just too great. Who would want to risk good sails as a tent or use an efficient aerofoil shaped leeboard as a floorboard, or an oar as a mast ? Certainly not anyone who likes or needs to sail 'efficiently' as does this writer. But good luck to whatever drives your passion ... but please, start another Thread for this project as it's not the same boat required by the original post. Thanks.
     
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  6. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I can get a few pictures of what are being used, but right now it is primarily a mixed bag. Everything from dugout canoes to a boat very reminiscent of open dory's.

    To answer your question yes a Dory would work, and are in my head at least the 'standard' by which designs will be judged. I am absolutely not saying that the design must be a dory, just it is emblematic of the type of boat we are thinking of. But like I told Rob Denney, a proa is more than welcome. The hope is to explore all sorts of designs and not get focused on one type of boat until the judging phase, we want a variety, and so long as a specific design is the best we are open to it.

    The type of fishing is pretty varied. Everything from cast nets to trolling if the boat can get enough speed in the conditions to pull lines well. Fish pots are common, as are skin netting, hand lines, basically they run the gamut. Different fishermen have different preferences, so the boat is going to need to be a bit of a jack of all trades. over focusing on one style of fishing is likely to be detrimental to the overall scope of what is intended. It may be down the road a follow up would have room for more specialization, but for now we need a generalist not a specialist.

    Most launching will not be into open surf, but from semi-protected beaches. So it doesn't need to make it through breakers, but weight is an issue.

    We are absolutely interested in the ABC method, and stitch and glue, one design team is planning an aluminum hull and are planning on bolts. The construction method, within reason, is not being judged. Just the capability of the final design. The only consideration for construction is can it be accomplished by semi-skilled workmen in primitive conditions, and how well does it work. My mission is to define the vessel characteristics and define the boat's capabilities, and let the creativity of the designers go wild with how to accomplish that task. Unlike most custom designs the client here doesn't care what the boat looks like, how she is put together, or the 'history' of the boat. The only concerns are function and cost, win those battles and the construction method will take care of itself.
     
  7. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Sqidly,

    for a whole host of reasons the design brief you lay out really isn't suitable for this project. We need simple, fast to construct, and cheap to operate. Anything that adds to complexity needs to be balanced against how it maximizes fishing success. Many of the suggestions you have would be great in a recreational vessel but not so much for a primitive fishing vessel.
     
  8. W17 designer
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    W17 designer Senior Member

    Stumble: "My mission is to define the vessel characteristics and define the boat's capabilities"

    So are you now able to list these and lay out the capabilities, so that a boat that complies with them will end up potentially satisfying the needs? Imho, this has not yet been clearly done. Not many will want to waste time creating a design that is doomed for the waste paper basket. so I think the ball is back to you for now for more clarity and focus.
     
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  9. W17 designer
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    W17 designer Senior Member

    Think about clarifying the limits such as, no of fishermen on board, weight of equipment, fish load etc, storage needs, length of boat, available power and motor type, length of a trip, max wave heights or max wind conditions etc. It's the 'required working duty' of the boat that should best define the design.
    So far, the only thing we have seen is 'launchable from the beach, about 20ft long and easily buildable'
     
  10. garydierking
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    garydierking Senior Member

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  11. Waterwitch
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    Waterwitch Junior Member

    I see an organization that has given Hatian fishermen outboard skiffs to replace their wooden boats and this video of another building skiffs for them. How ever perhaps for the fishermen who like their forward facing paddling canoes a planked bateau design would be a useable alternative.

     
  12. W17 designer
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    W17 designer Senior Member

    Thanks Waterwitch. I think the rugged but versatile boat shown in the 2012 video is indeed a practical solution, even if the boat will be quite heavy. Once in the water, that weight will help to stabilize the moti0n. And Haiti is probably typical of the area for which the proposed new boat would be useful and effective.
    To help guide potential designers, I think it's good to see how 'the locals' are presently fishing and what boats they are using, so I have collected some pics taken from various sources ... including some cleaned-up screenshots of the ADRA build project.
    Because of the need and usefulness of inclining the boat side, grabbing a net and then using boat and crew weight to 'lever' that weight up, I really think a fairly wide monohull, makes more practical sense than a multihull of any form, for this particular requirement of a versatile hand-fishing craft.
    If Stumble or any reader knows what size of O/B motor they prefer to use and handle, that would be good to know. Weight, economy, cost, thrust, speed .. all factor in, so we'd just be guessing.
    Fishing - Haitians love to overload their boats.jpg Fishing wharf in Haiti.jpg Fishing in Haiti - traditional 1 man boats.jpg Fishing in Haiti - raised fwd sheer.jpg Fishing in Haiti - hauling in.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti11-Launching.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-1.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-2.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-3.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-4.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-5.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-6 (2012).jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-7.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-9.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti-10.jpg
    Fishing in Haiti - raised fwd sheer.jpg Fishing in Haiti - hauling in.jpg Fishing Boat for Haiti11-Launching.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019 at 4:37 PM
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  13. W17 designer
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    W17 designer Senior Member

    For Stumble:
    For this 'design competition', what is the scheduled 'program timeline' and will there be an official SOR or "Statement of Requirements". There needs to be some parameters for designers to get interested and focused ... as for any other competition. For example, what plans are required to be submitted (plus 'when and how'), and then, for some, is there a prize of sorts for the winning design ? Also, will there be a lifespan for the boat life? It's important to establish, as a lighter boat may not last as long. Designing is all about making the best compromises but this means 'rules' or 'needs' must first be laid down. Just to help get this idea structured a bit more ;).
     
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  14. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    This thread was supposed to be about holding a design competition, not the announcement of the competition itself. I am meeting with a delegation from Haiti, Sails for Sustenance, and the judges on Wednesday to iron out the SOR. Right now they are in a bit of flux but we should have a solid working copy Wednesday evening I have no issue sharing it before the official announcement of the competition later this summer, but up to the actual announcement it will still be a working copy and subject to change.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019 at 4:11 PM

  15. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I really don't want to go into specifics about judging right now. We are still in the process of hammering out all of the details and locking down specific judges, as well as partnering with other organizations who may also have concerns that need to be addressed before the whole thing goes public. Right now I am planning on the public announcement including the details sometime around the end of July, certainly by the end of August. We have already
    Primarily the Haitian fishermen cannot afford any outboard engines, or the fuel to operate them. The few in operation tend to be reserved for emergencies, or when they need to hurry back to the dock with a large catch. The primary means of propulsion is rowing supplemented with sailing. Traditionally they used drag sails (including shrubs) to pull them out on the shore breeze in the morning and drag them back in the evenings. Sails for Sustenance has been working to bring used sails from the US to Haiti and helping the fishermen modify them for use on existing boats. This is part of the concern, traditional NGO's assume the use of a 15hp outboard, because it is the standard the UN uses. But in the truly impoverished parts of the world what we would think of as minimal power is a pipe dream. Our SOR assumes no outboard power at all, but provisions for a small 3-5hp for supplemental use only would be a nice addition. But 95% of the boats sea miles will be under oar or sail.
     
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