Design Challenge: Trapwing-"on-deck" ballast-12'-22'

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Tacking Speed Summary

    =======================
    Contender- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzrb-HYrxPM

    7 seconds full out to full out in good weather for the trapeze movable ballast system on the Contender
    =============================
    Flying Dutchman- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHsa0bUdFOM
    6-8 seconds for the trapeze movable ballast system from full out to full out*

    =============================
    505- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqEhYl8X2Pc&feature=related
    6-7 seconds for the trapeze movable ballast system from full out to full out

    =============================
    12' skiff- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2PvV820Qpk (toward end of video)
    7-8 seconds for the trapeze movable ballast from full out to full out

    =============================
    International Sailing Canoe-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exb6i3E3r-4&feature=related
    5 sec 50% out to 50% out;estimate 7 seconds full out to full out (very hard to find IC videos that show a boat tacking!)

    =======================
    * full out to full out= max outboard movable ballast CG on one tack to the same position on the other tack.

    =================
    Trapwing Design Speed-4.5 sec for Trapwing in any weather full out to full out**...
    **absolute minimum speed for wing +ballast movement. May be a bit faster but it will not, under any circumstances, be slower (within design framework with constant full out to full out tacking every few minutes for 8 hours+)

    ==================
    Click on image then click on subsequent image:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 24, 2010
  2. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    The same post, re-posted yet again, for at least the third time in the last 15 posts. How crazed must one be to do this sort of thing?
     
  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    This was posted earlier in this thread but it sums up the advantages of a planing version of the Trapwing concept so well that I thought it was appropo to quote it here because it describes the keelboat version quite well. The boat is not limited to a keelboat version-it can be "turboed" by removing the keel ballast and adding SA and wing ballast:


    "One of the main themes of this design concept is that the resulting boat can be a self-righting keelboat. I was intrigued by the K1 concept( http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/neat-singlehanded-keelboat-uk-30059.html ) where the designer chose a narrow waterline semi-circular section hull that was designed to be sailed heeled instead of flat like most planing hull dinghies. The Bongo is an example of a small keelboat with a planing hull. I've never really thought that was a good way to go because in order to plane the Bongo must be sailed flat which means that the keel bulb is not developing any RM. And while I like the K1 and the designers thinking I don't think it comes close to an easy to sail keelboat along the lines of a 2.4 meter. And no way are either the Bongo or the K1 "high performance".
    --
    The beauty of the Trapwing system seems to me to be that on a boat with a planing hull that has the power to plane in 10k or under it can be sailed flat upwind and downwind and can be designed to plane upwind and downwind.

    And high performance with a self-righting capability thanks to the design of the movable ballast wing and a bulb keel. Also, since the weight in/on the wing and the wing itself is moving to develop righting moment the crew is not taxed physically and can sail the boat with the ease of a 2.4 meter but with much more performance. I don't think there is a small keelboat anywhere that offers all this and that makes it extremely attractive to me.

    The advantages as I see them:
    1) easy to sail by almost any weight sailor.
    2) self-righting
    3) high performance-planing upwind and downwind
    4) variable wing ballast-moved manually or electrically
    5) two seating options-a.sit in and, b. side to side
    6) reefable rig
     
  4. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Doug, have you tried fishing, or cycling, walking in the forest, birdwatching maybe? Might be a good time to breath some fresh air instead of the noxious fumes produced by your overheated computer.
     
  5. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============
    Gee Gary,didn't you say something about leaving? No matter. Lets look at where the noxious fumes might be coming from: I have posted the design details of a whole new way to sail, backing it up with 10 years of model testing and a thread that has shown steady progress from an idea to historic versions of the idea to Julian Bethwaites take on the idea to the preliminary design of a 15 foot version of the concept to a new way to build a prototype, to a model of that prototype and soon the full size prototype.
    You, on the other hand have said:

    And several other ugly,uninformed(you refuse to read the thread), mean spirited and far from helpful so-called "criticisms" that come across more as unprofessional sniping for God knows what purpose-certainly not to help!!!
    And you talk about my computer??!!
    Give it rest and concentrate on your heli tri......
     
  6. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I wonder what "soon" means? After all, this is from the guy who has claimed time and again that he has had other boats "being built" over the past 8+ years and so far none of them have ever seen the light of day.

    I predict the brass plaque has brought this "build" to a close.
     
  7. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Or how about a real Design Challenge?

    Since he now has all the bits of his "foiler" again, maybe he can re-assemble it in the next few days and get some video of it foiling?
     
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Attached Files:

  9. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Yeah, interesting... as in interesting the way this SA poster summed it all up:



    couchsurfer Posted Today, 09:59 AM


    .........was hoping t'see a gybe




    Doug, that bucket guy and you must have the same liability company. Goes by the name of:

    Interesting Insurance
    "where no claim is too big to pretend that it doesn't exist"​


    ;-)

    .
     
  10. ndeverell
    Joined: May 2010
    Posts: 2
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    Location: Whangaroa

    ndeverell New Member

    Bucket on a pole

    I surprised myself how well this worked

    It’s a little difficult to jibe over 20 knots however can be done with caution

    I have tried this for only one day so has huge development potential

    The pole it set up with endless controls on the pole
    The pole is swung forward before the jibe then pulled back into position on the new reach

    This can be set up easily on any unstayed boat and with a bit of practice you can master it

    If you set this up on a laser you would leave the others for dead

    Give it a go
    [/YOUTUBE]

    http://www.halfmodelboats.com/newdinghy.php
     
  11. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Without a doubt hanging ballast out to windward improves performance ndeverell. I remember David Knaggs sailing solo hanging water ballast in a container like so on his Great Barrier Express in Auckland speed trials ... and he did very well. But and however, the sliding ballast arrangement on the Trapwing is a disaster waiting to happen ... as would it be on your water bucket when you gybed or tacked rapidly. Excuse me, I shouldn't be replying to this as I've just stumbled home after Friday night drinking .. but the message still stands. By the way, what is that blurry imaged boat - and yeah, sailing in Whangaroa must be fun. Cheers.
     
  12. ndeverell
    Joined: May 2010
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    Location: Whangaroa

    ndeverell New Member

    My thirteen year old son designed the boat (Kingfisher) and he helped me build it

    The boat has a self draining cockpit as my son gets tired of bailing his Optimist

    This boat has been a great boat for me to sail with the optimist rig as I have been able to race my son in his Optimist. Kingfisher is slightly faster

    The splash rig fits the boat and I found it sailed faster than the splash

    It also can fit the laser 4.7 rig

    Kingfisher is fitted with an optimist centerboard and a laser rudder

    She can be rowed or an outboard can be put on the back

    So it is a very versatile boat

    You can place your order here http://www.halfmodelboats.com/newdinghy.php

    Cheers Neil
     

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  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==========================
    Impressive, Neil!
     
  14. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Geez, that makes it the single most important development in the last fifty years of performance sailing... right behind the use of helium in boat hulls.


    And the concept has progressed to where since then?



    And this magnificent C&C race boat is parked where at the moment? OH! you say it never actually got built? How could Bethwaite let such a brilliant idea slip through his fingers, only to have the idea come splatting down on your messy work station like a hefty chunk of pastrami lubricated by gobs of mustard and mayo?


    A detailed explanation according to Doug.


    You've never had children, have you, Douglas? If there's a way to wreck it, adventurous kids will find that process in a matter of a few minutes. If there's a way to be injured while using it, kids will have you at the emergency room faster than you can blink. So, you want to put a complex, heavily dependent on moving parts, contraption in the hands of kids so that they can dream big like you? Get some real time on the water around children before you decide its OK to turn them loose with something like this. Better yet, have some kids of your own, worry about them, plan for their futures, make sure they arrive at their adulthood intact physically and mentally, guide them through any heavy pschological dramas that they will experience... and then tell us how this kind of gizmo is going to be just the ticket for a kid out on the water.


    More and more costly complexity sure is the answer to a sailing industry that has been down in the dumper for more than five years now. Help yourself to some industry reports in which it is clearly outlined that really inexpensive boats and at the other end, the truly expensive boats, are the only areas in the business where the heart still looks to be beating. Everyone else is on life support and looking to find a product that is at once, affordable and also fun to sail for even non-technically gifted sailors. Simplified and affordable boats are going to be the only way out of this mess, not another overly heated-up techno bomb that looks cool and never moves off the lot.



    So, here we have the world's most innovative designers, Martin Fischer, Nigel Irens, VPLP and Juan K included, and collectively, they have not been able to muster the needed brain power to come up with this same mechanism on their own. Now, after being dusted with pixie fluff, you are the singular holder of the genius necessary to pull this off?


    Numbers 1-6 are all speculative until such time that you can prove this boat actually works as described. Why not hold off on the hyperbole until you can actually get it on the water, it works and you can manage to produce proofs in the form of high res still photos and first generation, non-doctored video?
     

  15. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    It does seem like that brass plaque was the end of the "build". Now we'll only see more frantic descriptions of nothing, for the next 5 or 8 or 10 years.

    When I was 6 or 7 I was going to build a dune buggy out of a large appliance box. Then it was going to be a racecar. Then something else, and back to the dune buggy. After a week of this I got may hands on a kitchen knife and started cutting away at the box to make it look the way I wanted. I soon found there wasn't enough structure to hold the shape I cut.
     
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