Design Challenge: Trapwing-"on-deck" ballast-12'-22'

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Terry, the endplate/buoyancy pod has been part of this concept from the begining, particularly on the disabled version as another backup to prevent turtling. The buoyancy/endplates I've used throughout the last 35 years have been vertically oriented since that approach seemed like less drag than a wide horizontal endplate and would work equally well on each tack with less drag-and fits the buoyancy requirement better. This was illustrated in post 21,page 2 of this thread on the Trapwing 15. Turtling could probably only occur with a high speed pitchpole(that I doubt would ever happen) and with the buoyancy in the rig plus the small amount of ballast in the keel it will right itself. Capsize is virtually impossible with the sealed Wing but just in case the disabled version includes a ballast keel.
    The plan now is to build a full size prototype based on the hull shown in a previous post and below-the same hull the model was based on.
    The hull in the picture is 138lb and was a foiler in another life. The estimated additional weight for the bow and topsides mods is 38lb.(not including the Wing)

    Attached Files:

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  2. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Thos things are not end plates on your supposed mast head "objects", Doug.

    There is no slander. There is no malicious intent.

    Truth is… those things on your models look very much like antennae, rather than anything else. You suppose that antennae would be a part of a RADIO CONTROLLED boat and that putting said device(s) at the highest point would serve for better reception? Why else would there be a singular projection that is very vulnerable to damage, if it weren't about being antennae?

    Still, my man, a very big question remains... Why does the Trapwing need a flotation device at the mast head at all when you have, since the beginning of this idea, been proclaiming self-righting with no indication of the mast head device whatsoever?

    The business of my study was to include a flotation form at the mast head on both the sail and the mast in order to keep boats from turning turtle. It was my opinion that as long as there would be an object for that purpose, why not shape it to provide a modest gain in end plate effect while increasing the buoyant properties.

    I know you didn't patent any of that crap you have done with the antennae blob, or we would have heard all about it already a hundred times over. It would seem to me that if you want your objection to have any value, that you would produce detailed imagery of the precise shape and a description of same that can be conclusively dated.

    Here's the link to a thread from three+ years ago in which the business of end plates and flotation were discussed by myself, along with the same illustrations seen above.

    If you read down below my post at the link, you will also see that you posted on the thread. You never mentioned flotation in combination. You did, though, say that, "...The "peaked up" version seems to work best(leach longer than luff) and in two boat testing in monohulls was always faster upwind. I think that for a variety of reasons its better than using an endplate."

    Not one whiff of a comment about making use of endplates. Not one objection to my display of renderings that combined the two solutions. Not one thing to show how indignant you may have become because you found the devices study to be creeping into your hallowed, non-patented area.

    Now, because you have gone away from your then preferred, peaked-up treatment, you have very pointedly entered into the realm I established with square topped, flotation/end plate sails.

    In short, Doug, you have zero to say about your having been supposedly slandered. At every turn it has been shown that you did not develop anything even close and in fact, preferred something else... which you have now mysteriously abandoned, while pursuing forms that are mysteriously like the ones I developed.

    Next time you wish to get into a huff about your perception of offending smoke in the room, it might be best to do your homework first. Seems that you are the only one smoking.
  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Gee, Gary I came up with the pivoting wing many years ago-and posted it in this forum YEARS before you or Randy Smyth pivoted anything. In fact, you still haven't.....Your comments about the Trapwing are pretty general in an ugly, uninformed way. Care to be more specific, point for point?
  4. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Well, Doug... I suppose that you can take me to court and prove that you have been harmed, or even that the comments were untrue. You'll lose both issues based on easily presented facts in evidence and it will cost you a lot of money to discover that reality. Money which you do not have.
  5. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Quote from Doug Lord post since retracted...

    "The buoyancy at the top of the rig of the Trapwing 15 is illustrated on page 2, post 21 of this thread."

    OK, so let's go to page 2, post #21 and see just what it is to which Doug refers.

    We see a line drawing with some sort of shape at the top of the main sail. Looking closely, in enlargement mode, it looks to be more like a gantry form, than it does anything else. Further, within the body of the copy, Doug talks about the endplate effect on the jib. Trouble is, the endplate to which he refers, is at the foot of the sail in the form of a jib boom and not at all about any endplate at the head of the square topped jib. And I quote, "...This is similar to the system used on model boats except that the pivot point of the jib boom/endplate is attached to a sliding car on a track that slides athwhartship."

    At no point does he reference any kind of flotation pod, in the form of an endplate device at the top of the main/jib location.

    This is not the same thing as the design study being discussed at present and it isn't even at the correct end of the jib. Doug's points are without merit and are not even closely connected.

    Do keep in mind that even if there were a reference, as Doug would have us believe, this drawing appears in a post made in February of this year, while the thread was opened in October of 2009. Additionally, the subject of the Trapwing was a long running topic on another, previous thread that had been locked by the Moderator, with no mention in that thread either of any kind of endplate-flotation device at the top of the mast.

    The design solution so contested was not a part of the Trapwing from its inception. It is appearing now as a direct lift from the work I did four years ago. Please attribute, correctly, the "ripped-off" design concept, Doug, as prior art from a source not attributable to your own work.

    Like I said, if you want to continue with this charade, I'll go pound-out the whole truth from the Sailing Anarchy site where it also does not appear as an original thought at inception of the Trapwing.

    Please withdraw your accusations and apologize for your explosive bad manners in having done so. At that point, it all goes away and we can return to the friendly discourse.
  6. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Specifically, you are designing a fast boat, no? Then how in hell is your Trapwing going to move decently carting that load of ballasted junk around? That's oxymoron-like. What you have is a version of Uffa Fox's Flying 15 combined with a screwed up and far more complicated semi-copy of Fox's International Canoe's sliding seat - both boats designed in the '30's-'40's of last Century, by the way. And how is the poor ******* steering this thing going to handle all these Michael Mouse controls, shifting ballast, then shifting beam, not to mention basic sail controlling and steering, making sure he doesn't get caught aback with all ballast in the wrong place ... because if he does, those tiny floats will do zero and the boat will lie there stuck because the heeling of the craft will not be enough for the heavy or deep ballasted keel to bring it upright. I envisage the electronics fusing out, the said poor ******* enveloped in ozone haze - and still stuck in irons at a silly angle. And I am not a negative person, he said.
    Why not a conventional, basic trimaran ... and you can still put your cheater masthead thingo up there to stop inversion ... should the unlikely event occur. Then you could have manual winch controlled shrouds to stand the boat upright again. Its all been done before ... and it is a simple solution .... whereas yours is terrifyingly complex and a guaranteed Sod's Law to raise his ugly head.
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    You should read this thread if you're interested. Every question you ask has been answered-in detail.
    That is a really unfortunate comment Gary.
    Some notes:
    1)- the ballast in the wing moves faster than a human on a trapeze dinghy and will do it all day long and part of the night-at a minimum.
    2)- the sealed wing + the pods will support the ballast when it is max out.
    3)- handling the elements of this boat will be a piece of cake for anyone with a few hours experience. Tens years of model testing with the exact same controls this boat will use gives every indication that the co-ordination and commonsense required to sail a Trapwing is within most peoples grasp.
    4)- a trimaran would not be self-righting this boat can be configured to be self-righting w/o crew input. There is an excellent chance that a "Turbo" version of this boat with foils would beat a tri.
    regarding the ostlind trash, read post 135 which contains my response and all I will say on the matter period.
  8. bistros

    bistros Previous Member


    I'm certain Mr. Lord will eventually build/rebuild his prototype Trapwing boat from the reclaimed aeroSKIFF hull, and I'm dead certain it will be as much of a success as the aeroSKIFF (it foiled three times!) before it. Doug has a long track record of building innovative feature-intense boats. The Tantra, the Kona Kat, his cruisers and the aeroSKIFF all give us a clear indication of what the future holds.

    As long as RC models and boat building keeps Doug happy and busy, why not encourage him? There are a lot worse things he could be doing instead of annoying people on the Internet.

    No one is going to win any arguments with Doug - he's not bound by the same rules of science, engineering and social conduct as the rest of us. Everyone should stop trying to force their own limited reality on a visionary like Doug.

  9. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Bill, I completely concur with your wonderful assessment of Doug's potential. He's truly a man of many visions and I am as sure as you are that the Trapwing, when completed, will be absolutely a game changer for the sailing world. Let's just watch and see how all this unfolds.
  10. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Trapwing Wing Tip Rig(tm) history/ response to false accusations


    My response to the false accusations made by ostlind page 9,post 133 and re-iterated in several paragraphs of post 140.
    The following is the e-mail notification copy of ostlinds original post,since changed:

    "I'm kinda confused by your latest "models", Doug.

    Ever since you first proposed this Trapwing idea, you've been going on and on about how it would not turn turtle, was fully and automatically self-righting and that it would blister the local venues with high performance for lazy old fat guys and disabled sailors alike... just as it was conceived by you originally.

    Now, we see you adding a whole new element with this foamy, top of the sail pod, which was stolen from an idea I put forth several years ago, by the way, and you totally fail to acknowledge here, as if you came up with the idea on your own.

    The simple act of including this ripped-off form indicates that you do not think that the Trapwing will self-right and that the electronic gizmos you so heartily hailed as the end-all, be-all of disabled and lazy fat guy sailing... will not work as planned.

    A stolen, unacknowledged design study and a closeted admission of not being able to fulfill the original Trapwing design goals, does not make for a wholesome journey with previously, over the top claims. It's looking like the Trapwing is in a slow, de-evolution of capability while you try to effect clandestine fixes for issues that were poorly conceived.

    Below, see my renderings for a top of the sail/mast, end plate study from January 2006. All images were originally posted on these pages and serve as prior art. The only thing ever done even remotely like this were sewn-in flat panel foam pieces near the sail headboard. They provided no end plate effect with their flotation component.

    Truth is, I have not had the time to pursue this design process to its completion, as I see it... but, it would have been really courteous of you to have at least asked before swiping the design of same for your own stuff without proper acknowledgement.
    Perhaps you can see your way clear to doing that now?

    That is one of your most obnoxious, false and malicious comments ever. You have sunk to a new, uninformed low.I first used a buoyancy/endplate at the top of an experimental rig in 1972 , and in 1975 on the "Tantra"-pictures enclosed. I used it again in 1995 on the Flyer 3-a large ,production radio controlled trimaran. The closest to the buoyancy pod/endplate on the Trapwng prototype is the "ribbon jib" rig I designed and built in about 1972! It utilizes a fixed endplate/buoyancy pod attached to the mast just as does the Trapwing Prototype-see the picture below.
    I demand an apology and removal of your slanderous ,false post.

    UPDATE:In the post above(133) Mr.ostlind accused me of using his work without his permission. It is a baseless and false accusation. See my response above and the pictures below where I show numerous versions of endplate/buoyancy pods that I actually BUILT and tested over the last 38 years. In fact the oldest picture in the group shows a masthead buoyancy pod/endplate exactly the same in fucntion as the one on the Trapwing Prototype and similar but not exactly the same in appearance . But I've discovered an amazing thing here where Ostlind himself proves me right.
    Look at his words below and look at his pictures on post 133. These words appeared with his endplate pictures in his original post. It is clear that his "endplate" is attached to the sail and ROTATES WITH THE SAIL! He said that the endplate/buoyancy pod shown by me in the last Trapwing Prototype photo(post 130)
    "borrowed his idea". Well, as I just said, the pictures below disprove this conclusively but so do Ostlinds own words below: The buoyancy pod/endplate shown on my Trapwing photo( and in an earlier sketch) IS FIXED TO THE MAST-IT DOES NOT ROTATE. THE MAIN AND JIB ROTATE 100% INDEPENDENTLY OF THE
    That is totaly different than Ostlinds "endplate"!! Not only is it my design but rather than just a sketch, functional versions were built and tested in 1972, 1975, 1995 and now on the Trapwing. One other thing: this is something he obviously doesn't know and would be a killer if his contraption was ever included on a boat: when the buoyancy of an endplate is centered substantially aft of its pivot point on the mast and the boat capsizes the buoyancy lifts the back end of the sail making it EXCEEDINGLY hard to right a boat so-equipped. I know this from first hand experience-not from theory.

    Note particularly the endplate/buoyancy pod on the aeroSKIFF(Dancer=project working name) which is nearly IDENTICAL in function to the
    Trapwing system. Should be-its the same rig! But it was designed in 1998!

    ostlinds description of his "endplate" from here: Post #3
    "I see the end plate system as made from a soft, semi-flexible foam with a cover made from sailcloth. Because it is foam, it has the potential to resist a full turtling capsize on multihulls, doing away with the quirky, Hobie Bob style, of mast head float. A multihull that does not turtle, is in much better shape for self-righting than one that has gone all the way over and needs assistance.

    The foam is an integrated functional part of the sail at the mast head and could be attached quite easily with some of the newer, more tenacious Velcro so it cold be transferable from sail to sail, or removed altogether, returning the sail to its original form.

    I see a companion piece on the mast head so that optimal streamlining could be enjoyed, further reducing the drag signature created by the device and creating additional end plate effect."

    pictures over the last 35 years. Trapwing 15 sketch from page 2 post 21 of this thread showing masthead buoyancy/endplate, Flyer 3 with buoyancy pod/endplate and the closest to the Trapwing Prototype FIXED endplate/buoyancy pod- the"ribbon jib" rig with FIXED upper buoyancy pod/endplate-circa 1972-and the aeroSKIFF buoyancy pod /endplate designed for my 16' foiler all of which I designed-----

    Click on images THEN click on "+" sign. If "+" sign doesn't come up click on larger image then on "+" sign:

    Attached Files:

  11. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Geez, Doug. You're still ranting away as if all this is important stuff. Are you so totally insecure that you feel you need to keep on blowing bandwidth with this nonsense?

    Here's the bottom line, Doug. You haven't proven one thing that would constitute slander in a court room... not one. Flipping that term around as if you actually know what it means, represents some sorry thinking on the matter

    Here's a good bit of homework for you and it should shut your pie hole on any of this. Go look-up the term, look up the burden of proof that is set upon you by the courts and then, let us all know how many slander cases have been brought to a successful end by the maker of the complaint.

    Truth is, Doug... (and this is where you are so completely devoid of legal understanding that it should be making your head spin) Slander refers to the spoken word and Libel covers all other forms, such as written material. Clearly, you are accusing me of something that never existed if you refer to the written opinions I offered on these pages as slander.

    Slander and libel are the two most difficult prosecutions to make in the law. The burden is entirely on the party bringing the suit and it isn't just a matter of showing the judge and/or jury that the material has actually been published, or spoken. It has everything to do with you proving that by doing so, I have damaged you. Since you have already done plenty on these pages to damage yourself, you're going to be extremely hard pressed to prove that I could have possibly taken that posture any further than it already exists.

    Then, Douglas, there's this pesky little problem with the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. You know, the one where it says that there shall be freedom of the press? Add the Constitutional proofs required, along with the burden of proof of having been personally damaged and you get an impossible hill to climb.

    Since you have no money to your name... (let's face it, Doug, if you had money on hand to pursue lame legal actions such as this, you'd have long ago completed your many, many wild and crazy boat projects that amount to the flavor of the month on these pages) it would be best for you to just get off your back legs and be a pedestrian, pain in the fanny citizen, once again.

    I have my opinion, I've voiced it and you still haven't shown anything that would deter the argument. It's kinda like the proofs you have offered regarding the foiling of that Aero Thingy you made.

    In short, Ya Got Bupkis.

    You're the only one who has lost it here, or you'd have let it drop already and moved on. Clearly, I've touched a hyper-sensitive nerve for you and it must be very uncomfortable to live that way.
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Trapwing Prototype-Wing Deployed

    Views of the boat with the wing at max deployment with max ballast on port tack. The WING will take variable amounts of ballast as well as having a variable range of extension. The athwartship pivot is adjustable allowing the height of the ballast to be adjustable.

    Attached Files:

  13. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    While not wanting to get into the polemics, I don't think a buoyant mast-top will confer self-righting capability on any boat. All it does is prevent it turning turtle if it gets laid down by a gust. If the boat then lays passively on its ear, the cap isn't going to do any more.

    I don't see how making it from a soft material helps the cap perform its anti-turtling function any better. It might well be lighter but more significant is the safety aspect should it become detached and possibly an ability to conform to the curve of the sail, although I would want to see that happen before I accepted it.

    This thread is beginning to lose momentum.
  14. stubby
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    Location: Australia

    stubby Junior Member

    I have to say, I like Doug's idea, and I think we should be offering constructive criticism rather than strait out insults. If it works, well we will have one hell of a design on our hands, yes some of us may want to see more hard evidence, but if Doug has an idea in his head, why not let him peruse it?
    but thats just my 2 cents

  15. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    No one is stopping him.

    No one has been stopping him for the past 8 years or so he has been posting his ideas and insults on internet sites.
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