design a (25-27m) simple classic (sailboat-semiTrawler) in modern wood/epoxy system

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by aymanisamana, May 12, 2019.

  1. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    The prices are for both ready to sail with cheap wood used engine or fully loaded.

    Egyptians turn to be ½ price the Turks. A new Turkish builder suggested today using teak. Again teak here ranges from $700-1150 (African teak is cheep and strong but transfer heat, iroko is more expensive but dose not transfer heat as much). Burma teak is out of this business as its very expensive $5000 per cubic meter.

    I have requested the design only from few Turkish and international designers and turn cost between 20k-200k USD. I am thinking of building this boat with my wooden workshop & importing 3-4 Turkish builders in addition my labor here in the gulf because I think I could build it completely with around $500k with the highest standers and materials and ready to sail.

    So that’s at least 50% less than all Turks factories. I have support here but with Turkish builders (4 of them paid double what they get in turkey for a year+ free accommodation and others, I believe I could do this dream boat with half price, also I am an engineer and I did many projects in my life).

    Since the beginning I had in mind to build in mahogany due to its thermal insulation and psi strength with reference to its lighter Weight over Oak and teak, but I wanted to hear from everyone there opinion. As for mulberry and camphor, the Egyptian didn’t offer it.

    For us here, we have only west system in Dubai and I am not aware of other brands here. Also, I have used west system and I know how to play with it. If you have other brands in mind please tell so I could look for it here.

    Not one of them told me about the way of building the hull, but I am thinking of using the same setup that I have posted up from a 35m motorboat in turkey upon approval of the designer whom will do this boat.

    I was thinking of glued mold planking same as the pic up! What do you recommend?
    My concern now is the design and designer as I am trying to save as much as possible.

    Thanks
     
  2. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    One bad experience I had with Sapelli wood ; it shrink badly in hot weather as I fabricate a 4mX4m main outdoor and it had a total shirking of 30 cm although it was highly fabricated and coated.

    Teak on the hand never dose this at 50c in summer in the same house I made the Sapelli . ( I made 4 same size teak, shrank 1 cm)
     
  3. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Here an article describing what is sold as mahagony: Mahogany Mixups: the Lowdown | The Wood Database https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/mahogany-mixups-the-lowdown/

    You need a designer that is willing to work with you. You tell him what wood and other materials you have access to (and are willing to pay for), what machinery, what building space (air conditioned or not), and so on, then he designs the boat to suit local conditions. The prices you were quoted are normal for this size vessel.

    I would start a thread with a clear title like: "Design(er) needed for 80' motorsailer" or "Need design(er) for 80' sailboat" and ask for people to recommend individual designs and designers.

    As an example of a forum member with such designs (there are also others):
    80’ three-masted fishing schooner ~ Sail Boat Designs by Tad Roberts http://tadroberts.ca/services/new-design/sail/3mastedfishingschooner80
    96' Cutter. Modern Classic Performance Cruiser. Aluminum or Cold-molded. ~ Sail Boat Designs by Tad Roberts http://tadroberts.ca/services/new-design/sail/classiccutter96
     
  4. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    Thank you so much,
    I will do this with forums and also, keep working with Turks designers for one main reason; the Turkish builders will communicate easily with him having same language; to avoid miscommunications and fewer mistakes. Also I could use both the designer who knows English and Turks builders’ to arrange for fittings and accessories from turkey and Dubai and communicate between us the 4-groups (group of 4 carpenters and painters from my side to support the Turks builders) to speed up construction with accuracy!
     
  5. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    I found one supplier who has what’s called Kosovo Mahogany, have you heard about it? Kosovo is very cold place, I don’t know how mahogany grow

    What do you think about sweet chestnut wood with epoxy? In case I could get it with good price
     
  6. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

    Any designer you use should have a proven record of sailboat design. Not a gület that only has sails for show but something that can do upwind without a motor. A serious designer will provide references.

    Never heard of "Kosovo Mahogany". Someone is inventing a new name to make the wood more expensive. Ask the supplier for the scientific name in latin it's the only way to know for sure.
    The turks use sweet chestnut with epoxy they should have data.
    Get some prices for Khaya if you want mahogany. You could also get some samples of mulberry and camphor and do some tests for yourself. On a project that expensive you can afford to do some distructive testing.
     
  7. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

  8. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

  9. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    @ aymanisamana It seems that you want to build a luxury heavy displacement yacht comfortable charter boat. In fact the most important feature are the wooden high quality amenities and joinery.
    Epoxy wood is a very technical (and rather expensive) method for building generally light boats and racers. It ask for very able shipyards, having plenty of first rate woods and plywoods, often softwoods and mahoganies. Epoxy implies total encapsulation, ie lots of resin and glass fibers. It's truly a technical composite in big boats.
    The Turkish and Egyptian shipyards are not known for building high quality epoxy/wood boats. The Turkish have rather good shipyards of classic wood, I do not know for the Egyptians. Both countries have a great tradition of very nice furnishing.

    In the size and use of your boat, steel would be an excellent material for the hull. Easy to certify Lloys, Veritas or DNV. Easy to integrate the machines room, tanks of fuel, water and used water. Easy to insure.
    There are plenty of steel shipyards in all Europe, and Middle Orient able to build correctly such a hull. It's strong and able to withstand a lot of abuse. The price is without rival and good quality easy to obtain.
    Aluminium can be used but the good alu shipyards are not numerous in Middle Orient. The price is not the same and I do not see a real advantage on your kind of boat.
    After it can be finished by in Egypt or Turkey by first class furniture craftmen using all the available local woods. Add a nice teak deck. A lot of luxury yachts, even Class J and motorboats have been made this way, separating the building of the hull from the interior amenities.
    It will be impossible for the passengers being aboard to distinguish it of a wooden boat.
     
  10. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    Thank you Mr. Voyager,
    I know epoxy very well. And the reason I use epoxy is mix old & new technology for less maintenance and long life.

    I have visited around 30 Turkish factories in the past and saw many of them who are sending boats only to USA, Russia (one boat is going to Antarctica) and EU, so the fact Turkish has less knowledge or quality is not true, according to me.

    I know steel is better, but I want wood because of its natural insulation and weight, so if I could make it strong, thick (more safe if it hit by anything swimming in the open sea) and elastic wood, that will be possible and not magic with all new computer designs and experiences of designers.

    Moreover, I happen to be a creative engineer myself with patents since I was in college and projects I was involved in later on (in millions of dollars) a24m boat will be a joke to handle, for me. (I wont even spend 1 hr. a day). Also, I was thinking of having the designer himself here at the time of constriction.

    As for certification, we don’t need that here, maybe you could just get it for a good dinner but that I am not going to do but rather will find a design base on that standards, ill follow on that and yet, certification will be on all steel, aluminum or wood.

    As for interior, it we'll be basic solid woods same like the photos which dose not require heavy carpentry and if I had to, I have my wooden small factory that I own which will take care of it.
     

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    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  11. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    By the way, my initial calculations for west system epoxy, fillers and fibers are about $40k-60k USD max. So it’s expectable to me.
    For a same like new yanmar engine 450Hp, never opened & imported from japan from a damaged boat is $12k USD here, same one will be new at 45K, for example.
    I have mechanics that rebuilt such engines for less than 3k USD. I also have my own plumper’s, electricians and so on.
    And I am trying to keep this project within $500k which I think is possible.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  12. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    Good news, I just received a quotation for African mahogany (kosipo) $750 USD C/M including tax. (5% tax here)
     
  13. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    I would like to add, my plans for fuel tanks are to be steel same like trucks or automobiles to keep fuel & filters clean and stainless steel for fresh water tanks to keep it clean (I have access to both makers) but remains for designer is to isolate them from direct contact of the hull to avoid condensation on wood. For gray/ black water plastic/ fiber will do.
     
  14. aymanisamana
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    aymanisamana Junior Member

    As for masts, aluminum is the best and will cost $100k by one of the best makers (Reckmann of Germany). However, mostly ill make them of wood (which is bad for sails; they will tear it off if they are not stable enough) but that will add stealth from radars and pirates. And I will save a lot.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019

  15. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    You're for sure posting good jokes around here, but just in case you can't reach your aim, what's your total budget for this project ?
     
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