Deck arrangement for a 100ft schooner

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by james.smith, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    Hi,

    I'm not quite sure whether this is the right forum to post to but it seems general enough to get started.

    I have just bought Cecelie:

    http://djalbat.com/cecelie

    Unfortunately most of the information on her was lost a decade ago and, in particular, there are no detailed plans. I'm having a naval architect survey her hopefully in the coming weeks (yet to be arranged) and whilst her interior arrangement can wait, I wanted to get the deck arrangement sorted.

    I am looking for someone with any knowledge of schooners who has some ideas of how to go about this. Here are some questions to give an idea:

    * She'll be trading again one day, although admittedly that's a very long way off. So amidships she'll be all cargo hold. How big should the hatch be? I have this crazy idea that I'd like her to be able to take a 40ft container but the distance between the masts is less than that at around 35ft. Can I increase this without ruining her?

    * The previous owner insisted on a forward cabin, which is definitely coming off. However, there will be forward accommodation so there will need to be at least a sizeable hatch. I was thinking of some very low construction, no higher than the cargo hatch, that might possible admit some light.

    * The aft cabin is large. I'm not averse to this, but I've seen ships like this, the ketch Irene for example, that make do with a very small cabin. Can I stick with the large cabin?

    What would be great is if anyone has pictures of similar boats that they can share on the forum, or any advice generally. I'm all ears.

    Many thanks in advance and kindest regards,

    James
     
  2. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    The traditional rig and 40' containers are not compatible, choose one. The usual idea is to let those that deal in containers move them, and sailing cargo ships stick with items not easily or conveniently handled in containers. Think about loading and delivery in ports where there are no container handling facilities.

    There are various non-conventional rig solutions to make handling a container possible. But at this point shipping fees are so low for a container that it would not be economically feasible to move just one container.

    You really need a sound business plan to guide the decision process during fitout of the vessel.

    Almost every decision will be subject to flag state rules, classification rules, insurance company requirements, or the requirements of your customers.

    Good luck.....
     
  3. joz
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    joz Senior Member

    Like the schooner, have you though of using her as a passenger vessel rather than a cargo vessel and have a cruise company or charter business, rather than go to the expense of having her fitted out for a cargo business just a thought thou.
     
  4. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    @Tad

    > The usual idea is to let those that deal in containers move them, and sailing cargo ships stick with items not easily or conveniently handled in containers. Think about loading and delivery in ports where there are no container handling facilities.

    All true. I had this crazy idea that being able to carry a container would make her a little more viable, after all how do the goods reach the port? Most likely in a container. But of course I had no plans to one day have her lining up behind container ships to receive her single container.

    > You really need a sound business plan to guide the decision process during fitout of the vessel.

    I'll certainly be taking things slowly. Having her seaworthy is a far away dream, it may not be for me to get her that far. We'll see.

    @joz

    I'm having a large hold and, hopefully, accommodation aft and f'ward. So she should be suitable for charter.

    Anyway, this silly container idea of mine is a bit of a red herring. What I'm really interested in are deck plans and photographs of schooners, and people with experience of this kind of thing. I might try another of the forums...

    Thanks for your comments.

    Kind regards,

    James
     
  5. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    The Baltimore Clipper Ship. It's Origin and Development by Howard I. Chapelle

    The American Fishing Schooners, 1825-1935 by Howard I Chapelle

    American Sailing Craft by Howard I. Chapelle

    http://www.lcmm.org/our_fleet/lois_mcclure.htm

    The Great Coal Schooners of New England 1870-1909
     
  6. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    DCockey, hi,

    thanks for the links. I had no idea that sailing barges existed in the US, but of course it makes perfect sense.

    Funny to think of a canal boat as being a schooner. I'm still not sure what exactly differentiates a schooner from any other type of vessel. Certainly Cecelie and Lois have little in common. Someone told me the other day that it was the relative heights of the two masts, the second being strictly higher than the first in a schooner. But then you get these schooners with more than two masts...

    The second book on fishing schooners looks a good choice, I think they'll be the closest to Cecelie. Again fascinating to learn that schooners were used for fishing, I assumed they were always cargo vessels.

    Many thanks again.

    Regards,

    James
     
  7. JSL
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    JSL Senior Member

    You might want to check out the scantlings - I don't see any floors of and this could rule out any commercial application since you would probably have to go through a regulatory agency.
     
  8. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    JSL, hi,

    fair point, of course she'll have a proper hold. There's considerably more steel work to be done on her. The hold will probably go in when the deck arrangement is finalised. I think it would be counterproductive to put the hatch in but not the superstructure underneath to support it.

    As I've mentioned before this cargo/commercial subject is a bit of a red herring. What I'm really after are plans and ideas around her deck and rigging. I have a book on American fishing schooners on its way to me which will do doubt prove invaluable. I'm eager for more information and advice along those lines.

    Doing some quick googling I came across this:

    http://www.roverschooners.com/_americanrover/index.html

    I could buy a few study plans from here...

    Kind regards,

    James
     
  9. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Here are a few links for reference that might be useful for your project.

    Here is a thread I started on the YBW Forum last year about the Schooner Ruth which had been recently launched here (in Barbados) after being under construction for 15 years.
    http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...er-construction-and-recent-launch-in-Barbados

    She has a cargo hold between the masts, and the Owner's intention is to use her to carry fruit and vegetables between the islands. However they still have to finalise all the details of the Caribbean small cargo ship safety certificate requirements before they can start trading.
    Part of the cargo hatch cover can be seen in one of the photos - it is the traditional type, with individual boards resting on a sill inside the hatch coaming, and then a tarpaulin is secured over the hatch cover.
    She should be able to carry around 40 tonnes of cargo.

    There are some more photos and info on her webpage
    www.schoonerruth.com

    Here is a video of her launch
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AglsXOzbNvM

    And an aerial video filmed with a drone
    https://vimeo.com/114397231

    Here is a project underway to build a timber traditional sailing cargo vessel in Costa Rica
    http://www.sailcargo.org/

    These folk are also very passionate about traditional sailing cargo vessels
    http://fairtransport.eu/

    They mention Tres Hombres - she is currently sailing from the Azores back to Europe http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...668/imo:0/mmsi:577333000/vessel:TRES HOMBRES/

    They also mention Avontuur - here is her website
    http://tarkwa.de/
    There are some rather indistinct drawings here http://tarkwa.de/the-ship/ that show the hatch opening to be 7.5 m x 3.3 m.

    Here is a sailing cargo ship that was built in Indonesia in the late 80's
    http://songlinecruises.com/news/tsunami.php
     
  10. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    Wonderful stuff, thanks for this.

    I like the look of Ruth. The hull seemed ultra modern to my eyes but I find she's based on a schooner called Bluenose. She definitely has that look of a racing yacht, very different to Cecelie. There's some fantastic 1938 footage of Bluenose racing on Wikipedia. I'll keep an eye on Ruth's site, it'll be great to see her trading in the near future.

    Of the others all are worthy and inspirational. The pick for me though is Fair Transport, I've already spent time looking over their site. I hope to do some volunteering for them before too long.

    Cecelie will have a thumping great diesel engine although I hope she hardly ever has to use it. The prop and propshaft, and indeed the clutch on the end of it, are already in place.

    Seeing Ruth gives me hope! Thanks again!
     
  11. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    One other thing I forgot to mention is Ruth's cabin, which I really like.

    I think she differs quite markedly from Bluenose here but I think what's been done wouldn't spoil the lines of the hull or interfere with the rigging at all. Unless I'm wrong it looks sunken, by which I mean the floor appears to be at least a few feet below the surrounding deck. I could take the same approach with Cecelie and, given her draft and wider cross section, still have standing room underneath I think.

    I'm guessing the cabin is just that and not a wheelhouse since I doubt you could see out of it and over the bows. I couldn't see the helm behind the cabin though from the aerial shots but I'm guessing it's there.

    I looked again and indeed the helm is there right behind the cabin.
     
  12. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Hello James - thank you for the kind comments re the links earlier.

    Ruth was designed by Tom Colvin - there is a brief mention of her on his website here - http://thomasecolvin.com/fish schooners.htm
    It just mentions that the plating model shown resting on the bench is being built in Barbados.

    There is also a thread about Ruth on the Wooden Boat Forum, including some nice black & white photos:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthr...ooner-Ruth-quot-on-December-6th-2014-Barbados

    Re the cabins, the aft deckhouse is the saloon and skipper's cabin, with the propulsion engine (a John Deere 6068TFM I think) and generator (Northern Lights) under the saloon sole.
    The midships deckhouse (just forward of the hold) is the galley - it has a hatch in the forward bulkhead to pass supplies through to the crew quarters in the forepeak.

    Re Fair Transport, they are amazing - Tres Hombres has been sailing to the Caribbean each winter for the past 4 or 5 years and then returning to Europe carrying cargo with no machinery at all. She is currently on passage between the Azores and the Channel - a bit early really methinks for returning to high latitudes, but they have done it a good few times before - on some of these passages they have carried cargoes of organic chocolate from Grenada to Holland.

    Avontuur is now being rebuilt in Europe - she used to carry cargo under sail around the islands here up until not so long ago, and she made an impressive voyage to England 13 years ago towing the wreck of the West Country trading ketch Irene the whole way.
    http://www.ireness.com/history-of-the-ship-2/

    Here is another good thread about schooners on this Forum :
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/steel-schooner-designs-48553.html
     
  13. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    Hi,

    more pictures of Ruth! I like the black and white ones and the shape of her hull even more.

    Ha! I'd read somewhere that Irene was towed back here behind a sailing ship and now I know which one. Incredible story.

    Irene's beautiful. I can hardly take my eyes of the pictures on her site. She's known at Nielsen's in Gloucester where I hope to be a resident next summer when I put Cecelie's deck down.

    I think of all the boats afloat Irene is closest to what Cecelie could become, even though she's wooden and not a schooner.

    Regards,

    James
     
  14. WhiteDwarf
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    WhiteDwarf White Dwarf

    Basil Greenhill - The Merchant Schooners

    James,

    The above, two volumes if my recollection serves, include detailed deck plans for West Coast schooners and ketches about the size of your vessel.

    As others have said, a schooner rig would preclude a 40 ft container. Would it work on a ketch? If so, it would a container fitted as an accommodation module be viable? If so, it might give you more flexibility.
     

  15. james.smith
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    james.smith Junior Member

    Hi,

    many thanks for this, it appears to be just what I am looking for. The earlier editions were published in two volumes, later editions in a single volume, one of which I've just picked up on Amazon.

    I'm not going to be drawn on the subject of containers...!

    Kind regards,

    James

    P.S. The latest Cecelie news is that I've done the deal on the teak for her deck. 100 square metres of the stuff, which at 6 3/4 inches wide stretches for nearly 600 metres!
     
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