Daysailer for large family

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Russ Kaiser, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. Russ Kaiser
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    Location: Winston-Salem, NC

    Russ Kaiser Exuberant Amateur

    I have recently been looking at daysailor designs with building a boat for my family of six in mind. Right now, the kids are 13, 12, 9 and 7, but in just a few years they will all be adult sized. I would hate to put in the effort to build a boat and then find it too small or unstable with all hands aboard.

    Here are the constraints on this project:

    1. Money - the less expensive the better - willing to buy a used boat if one fits the bill, but I imagine I will be building.

    2. Simplicity - none of us are sailors at the moment but as a family we enjoy outdoor activities together. We will all be learning at the same time.

    3. The boat has to be trailer-able and will primarily used on the large inland lakes in our area - central North Carolina. We don't want to rule out taking the boat to the Chesapeake Bay, but I don't see any open ocean sailing in our future.

    4. Performance - not a top priority, but it would be nice if it moved at a pretty good clip when the breezes are fair.

    5. Open, light, and beach-able - we're not interested in a cabin at all - we may combine sailing and camping, but we won't camp on the boat. I only see us sailing a couple hours at a time. As for bath room facilities, if necessary, we can use a camping toilet and a curtain if someone can't wait till we get back to shore.

    I have looked at designs and I like the size and look of this boat. My concern is that being a dated design, that the construction technique will be heavy. It seems to have a very heavy-duty, work boat oriented look to it. I was wondering if anyone had any other design suggestions that fit my parameters or opinions about this design.

    Atkins James Samuel

    Thanks,

    Russ
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Daysailer

    Russ, check out this thread: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/21st-century-daysailer-weekender-30756.html

    Lot of neat boats, but I really like Paul Riccelli's RYD 14.6(post # 7), and the Nomad(post #63).
    Another new boat that is impressive is Eric Sponberg's Prema design not in that thread. Both Paul ("PAR" and Eric are members here and could be e-mailed or PM'd)
    Plans are available from the designers for the RYD14.6 and for the Prima.....

    -click on image-
     

    Attached Files:

  3. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    Atkins James Samuel is a dated boat of Open Sharpie like form. It will be simple to build and need not be built quite as heavily as the old time designers specified. Not to say that the Atkins were mistaken about scantlings and such. They knew their business. However materials have changed to such an exent that we need not use the old fashioned methods. The referenced site notes that details for the plywood option are included with the plans. The term dated, as used above, does not mean obsolete or undesirable.

    The rig may very well cost more than the boat. Do some research into the cost of spars, sails and rigging before you dive into the project. The subject boat will also do very well with a small outboard. It will not be a fast boat with an engine but it will probably hold its own under sail. The big cat rig can be a handful in a blow. You'll need some good council from experienced sailors.

    It I was anticipating 6 passengers, I'd want more boat. It is just as easy to build a 23 foot boat as it is a 19 footer. A 19 foot boat is a two scarf deal and so is the 23 footer. You will buy as many sheets of ply for the smaller boat as you do for the larger one. I think that James Samuel needs to be assessed for load carrying ability. He may not be entirely happy with a six adult load.
     
  4. Russ Kaiser
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    Russ Kaiser Exuberant Amateur

    Thanks for your replies Messabout and Doug.

    I was drawn to the James Samuel mainly because of its simplicity and size. I know enough to know that I don't know enough to modify something that will hold everything I hold dear out of the drink.

    If I go with a bigger boat, it would have to be a different plan. My design decisions will be limited to paint color ;) There is always the trailer-able aspect to consider. What is the maximum beam that is safe to trailer? A tow vehicle will not be an issue.

    As for cost, I would like to keep this project under 7K, well under if possible. I roughly figured the James Samuel would build and rig for about 5K. I have a 4 HP Yamaha Outboard motor and I can make my own trailer for less than 1K.

    Messabout, you stated that large cat rig would be a handful in strong winds. What about a design similar to the James Samuel with a Cat-Ketch rig? I hear they are very easy to sail and more benign in a strong wind.

    Also, a self-righting craft would be an admirable quality. That might mean looking for a design with some water ballast.

    Russ
     
  5. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'm inclined to agree in that the James Samuel design is a lot more building effort then necessary for an open dayboat.

    I have some simple designs for open dayboats that incorporate modern materials and build methods. They'll be half the weight of the Atkins design, which directly translates into build cost and effort and you can use a rig from a one design or production boat to save costs there as well.

    RYD-14.6 wouldn't be a boat I'd recommend for your needs. It's a fast, light dayboat for two and wouldn't be something you'd want to learn to sail on (you'd get wet a lot), especially with novice children sailors.

    An open dayboat for 6 is a pretty tall order, so you're not going to see many that can easily handle this bill, but there are a few. An open dayboat with 6 aboard isn't going to be especially fast either. In the end, select a design that suits your growing needs. In other words, you can learn to sail a big, fat, stable daysailor, but in a year or two, you'll still have a fat, slow boat with room for lots of people or gear. On the other hand, ask yourself if you'll really have 6 aboard all the time. You kids will be dating, borrowing the family car and other wise, not want to putter along with dad on his big, fat boat, before too long, so maybe a smaller, more preformance oriented boat, possably with a shorter rig initially, as you learn how to handle her, is what you should be looking for. One that can handle 6 now while they're still young, small and easily interested, but can pick up her skirt and scoot in a few years when they get older, you've installed the bigger rig and they're more skilled and interested in tearing up the local waters, probably with the cute girl from next door aboard.
     
  6. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Russ,

    It isn't really what you had identified as a day boat, but there are a number of easily trailerable keel boats that might fit the bill. Off hand an Olson-30, Olson-29, Hobie 32, J27, um... I am sure I can think of a few more.

    All of these are road legal without permits, towable with a large truck (4,000 lbs range), can be bought in good shape for around 10k, and while they Re more than you wanted to spend have a very stable market. So you can sell it almost any time for what you have in it.

    The advantage is that they all have racing potential, are relatively light, minimal accommodations, and will allow you to grow as a sailor. Plus they have the load capability of handling 6 people and gear for a weekend easily.

    The downside is they can't really be beached, but can carry small dingoes pretty easily. It will hurt your sailing performance, but not absolutely kill it.


    The other thing that comes to mind would be two 3 person dingies. Something like a Lightning, or a Flying Scott. They make trailers that can tow two easily enough, and you have a second boat to sail against. Plus if it is just the two of you, you don't have the issues of a larger size boat to deal with.


    I know neither of these is what you initially asked for, but I just can't think of a road trailerable, 6 person day sailor, that isn't outrageously expensive. Mandate to be honest I am always wary of people new to boats when they start talking ablout building. I think it is more important to get out there on anything, learn what you love and hate, then after you know that come back and rethink what boat is your ideal one. Because of a lack of experience new people are prone to have mistaken priorities, buy a poor boat match for them, then leave sailing because of it. Often without realizing the other options out there.

    There're an amazing number of yacht clubs, sailing associations, and groups local to pretty much anywhere there is water that provide low cost options to get on boats, and I would highly recommend contacting them before spending the time building your first sailboat.
     
  7. Russ Kaiser
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    Russ Kaiser Exuberant Amateur

    Two boats, that might work...

    Stumble - I certainly appreciate your opinion. The two smaller boat idea has more appeal to me than purchasing an even larger boat. I typically take my kids fishing one or two at a time, four errant casters in one Jon boat is a recipe for disaster, so buying or building a smaller boat might work.

    As for the larger craft, when you get up to the size of keel boat that you are talking about you are limited where you can take it and where you can put it in. This will primarily be a lake boat. A larger boat would also necessitate an upgrade to my tow vehicle.

    I looked at most of the designs you mentioned and it still looks like 6 in the cockpit would be crowded. This is why I was looking for an open design. I also want it beach-able so we can land it on the islands that dot our local lakes. Essentially, the larger boats are a real departure from what I want.

    I will have no problem building a boat. I work with wood and epoxy fiberglass all the time and have made a couple small stitch and glue paddle boats already. I have a well equipped shop with a table saw, band saw, planer, jointer, wood lathe, as well as a nice 12x36 metal lathe and a 9x30 CNC mill. I complete my projects, they just take me a while.
     
  8. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Russ,

    Sounds like keel boats are out. Given your desires then, I would really suggest taking a look at a Flying Scott. They are easy to find, there is a lot of knowledge about how to sail them, easily trailered, and while 6 people is pretty tight, as long as the kids are young it is doable.

    The boat was really designed with a family sailor in mind, so loads are pretty light, most of the parts are pretty cheap, and they are not particularly complicated to sail on (they are currently the training boat for every yacht club on the gulf coast). Plus you can pick them up cheap. Less than 2,000 should get you into a reasonable quality boat.

    And if you decide to get a second one they make trailer bunks that can handle up to three boats as a conversion to the base trailer. There are also a lot of used racing sails (more than good enough for cruising) that can be had for a few hundred bucks any day of the week.



    Again, I am on principal against new sailors building since there are a lot of good used boats on the market for way less than the cost of a build. Plus you can go sailing in a few days instead of a year or more. It isn't that I doubt your capabilities, just that I see half completed boats all the time for sale when people got tired of building and gave up.

    Even if you decide to build, I would still suggest getting a cheap boat (sunfish, snark, laser) that you can go play with while your dream boat is under construction.
     
  9. GTO
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    GTO Senior Member

  10. Russ Kaiser
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    Russ Kaiser Exuberant Amateur

    Folding - I think not

    Hey GTO, I think I would prefer my boat in one piece, thanks. The light schooner by Bulger is a possibility but it is pretty narrow and I wonder how roomy it is.

    I have checked the local classifieds but there is not a lot available in our area right now, probably because we are in the height of the boating season. As for the boats that are available, the majority seem to be all cabin and no cockpit at all. There are a bunch of 16 to 22 ft boats that all look like cousins of each other.

    I think the design below has merit and the designer is practically in my back yard.


    [​IMG]

    Core Sound 20

    The thing I like about designs like this is you can leave the sails on shore and with a small outboard, use the thing as a fishing boat.

    Russ
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The Bolger schooners are difficult to sail by novices and often capsize with skilled crews aboard.

    The Core Sound series is a good option, though the CS-17 would be a better choice then the CS-20. The 17 can handle a crowd, though preformance will be degraded a tad. It will sail smartly with less aboard, so as your kids grow, they can wring out some speed. The CS-20 is a much larger boat, even though it's only a few feet longer.
     
  12. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    bruceb Senior Member

    right size boats

    I think if you want to build a boat, build anything under 20' that seems reasonable, if you want to take the family sailing, get a small used swing keel cruiser. There are plenty of under 25' shoal draft cabin boats, and almost all of them are quite comfortable with four aboard and can safely carry six. Be realistic, most of the time you won't have everybody on board, and when you do, a small cabin for storage, weather protection, and a place for a porta-poti really helps the family enjoy your sport. I don't know you or your needs, but I used to be a sailboat dealer and I do know what works for most families. I am in Atlanta, and I can come up with quite a list of inexpensive fun boats available here in the southeast. B
     
  13. Russ Kaiser
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    Russ Kaiser Exuberant Amateur

    I want to thank everyone for their input. I think in the short term, the family and I are going to get instruction at a local lake that is about 40 minutes away. The lake also does rentals. The rental rates are very reasonable (100 dollars a year per boat per season, first come first serve) but the largest boats are capri 14s.

    When my wife and I get to be safely proficient sailors, we can take out two boats at once and get everyone out on the water. What is nice is this particular lake has very active sailing because of boat motor restrictions and we will get a chance to look at other boat types.

    At any rate, it will allow us to get our feet (and other body parts) wet with sailing. We can start this year and shop for boats this winter or maybe send off for some plans.

    Russ
     
  14. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Russ,

    Good plan! Getting into the sport will give you a lot of knowledge that can only be learned through experience. This way you get to really learn what you like (or even if you like sailing) and can suit purchases to fit. Particularly if rentals are that cheap it would be silly to do other wise.

    Besides it may turn out that your wife likes cruising, and you want a high performance something or other, and really would rather have two different types of boats.


    Good luck, and fair winds.
     

  15. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I have a Rhodes 19 Daysailor for sale (centerboard version).

    It's an old boat and is a little rough around the edges. It has three old, but usable sails, standing rigging, and comes with a trailer.

    I'm selling it for $400. I think your family would be a good home for it.
    You could probably buy it and fix it up for less than you could build a suitable boat.

    The main sheet, boom vang and jumper strut are missing. You can do without the jumper strut. Some of them are raced that way. At least, according to the web page.

    If you're interested, give me a private message.
     
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