Dagger Board placement on a new 18' Malibu Outrigger design

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Hans Millenaar, Apr 8, 2020.

  1. Hans Millenaar
    Joined: Apr 2020
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    Location: San Diego

    Hans Millenaar New Member

    I am building a fiberglass 18ft Malibu Outrigger type sailboat. Is there a rule that determines where the dagger board should be positioned?
     
  2. bajansailor
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    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

  3. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Minnesotan wakes up daily, in SE MN, a good start,

    BobBill Senior Member

    There is a formula or ratio to place center of effort...sails. I have but cannot recall how to show here.
     
  4. Windward 54
    Joined: Jan 2022
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    Location: Newport Beach, California

    Windward 54 Junior Member

    Hey Hans,
    We're in the process of sail Testing our Malibu Outrigger Canoe #194 before we start our full restoration and would love to chat with you. Cheers!
     
  5. BobBill
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    Location: Minnesotan wakes up daily, in SE MN, a good start,

    BobBill Senior Member

    I have been sailing one for two years...made from recycled Hobie Hulls, T6061 A, repurposed catbon masts as spars, per original MO plana...

    Pics work wonders...
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2022
  6. BobBill
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    Location: Minnesotan wakes up daily, in SE MN, a good start,

    BobBill Senior Member

    FWIW re MO sails, My rig is Dacron only, with luffs and no stiffeners, attached to spars using hook and loop and is 200 square feet...
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2022
  7. Windward 54
    Joined: Jan 2022
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    Location: Newport Beach, California

    Windward 54 Junior Member

    Hans,
    We own MOC #194 and will be sail testing her this spring and summer before we start our complete restoration in October. Do you have images of your MOC? We're in Newport Beach, California, where are you located?
     
  8. Windward 54
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    Location: Newport Beach, California

    Windward 54 Junior Member

    I've read all your posts and viewed your images. Good work and good sailing!
     
  9. BobBill
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    BobBill Senior Member

    Thank you...C-19 has limited our efforts here...must add cockpit to main hull and still planning to make new foam outrigger hull...local welder/metal worker was genius and helped lots.

    FWIW, Orig gooseneck and mast steps are the only way...figure designer leaned by errors, as I did.
     
  10. Windward 54
    Joined: Jan 2022
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    Location: Newport Beach, California

    Windward 54 Junior Member

    Hi Bob,
    I raced a C-Scow on Lake Arrowhead, California for 20 years and surprisingly find the Melges C-Scow and Malibu Outrigger Canoe to be very similar. We plan to buy all our hardware for our MOC #194 "VARUA" ( Hawaiian for SPIRIT) through Melges
    https://melges.com/melges-c-scow/ (Melges C -Scow)
    https://shop.melges.com/product-category/melges-c-scow/ ( C - Scow hardware link)
    The C - Scow and MOC similarities are ;
    • Same size sail so we plan to use a C Scow sail I have for testing. This is a very powerful sail and pushes a 600 pound C-Scow @ 15 to 20 knots, on a reach in 15 knots of pressure.
    • The Scow Boom is the same size as a MOC and the Melges Gooseneck will work perfectly. https://shop.melges.com/product/mel...-scow/melges-c-scow-gooseneck-with-fasteners/
    • Scow Outhaul and Vang systems are engineered to preform in 30 knots +. We'll use this hardware.
    • For the mainsheet we'll use the same hardware. Melges sells a Harkin ratchet block so perfect, you don't need a mainsheet cleat.
    • The pressure on the C-Scow and MOC rigging are so similar, we plan to use all the same model blocks, line, cleats and other hardware Melges incorporates in their S-Cow.
    • All spars ,blades, hull decks will be varished and LP Sinka Spruce. Sitka Spruce | The Wood Database - Lumber Identification (Softwood) https://www.wood-database.com/sitka-spruce/
    • For the Gaff Gooseneck, we'll use the Melges Gooseneck.
    • Rudder hardware we'll use
    • Mast top we'll use
    • All control lines will lead back to the skippers control box
    • We plan to test sail VARUA in her original condition over the next 6 months correcting the MOC's design issues as we're sail testing. Some of the MOC issues are; tacking, submarining, weight distribution, paddling, reefing, floatation and more.
    • After testing VARUA, we'll give her a full restoration and splash a mold off VARUA to build a fiberglass One Design Malibu Outrigger Canoe.
    • We hope all this effort will help create a One Design Malibu Outrigger Canoe racing class. Today, the C-Scow One Design Class turns out 15 to 70 Scows for a summer regatta. With some hard and smart work, maybe the Malibu Outrigger Canoe will someday achieve these numbers as well. CHEERS!
     
  11. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Minnesotan wakes up daily, in SE MN, a good start,

    BobBill Senior Member

    C boats are one or me faves,,,used to run with one up on Lake Minnetonka with my hot old 110...on windy and choppy days,,,,'

    You're quite thoughtful and thorough...love C boats but love M 16s a bit too...am convinced scows are IT.....and outriggers

    None (Scows) here, so no "running." and why I did outrigger...can take out with paddle and drive all over.....

    BTW, the upper spar is 26' and boom is 16 or 18' on my MO ,,, per plans, and reminds me...have to add lazy jacks to keep sail out of water...outside of glass Hobie hulls, sail was only big change and stays....no battens only Dacron...and grommets to attach hook and loops to trackless graphite spars...

    If you click Avatar the various photos of tig might show....


    Have to admit...pressure we sail in has been low....10 knots....but boat is charmer
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
  12. Windward 54
    Joined: Jan 2022
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    Location: Newport Beach, California

    Windward 54 Junior Member

    https://www.boatdesign.net/attachments/gnarlyaaa-jpg.165998/
    Hey Bob,
    Looks like you used two different Gaff sections. I'm curious as to where you sourced these? A carbon Finn Mast is almost long enough and we could add an extension on the mast butt to make it 26' or more.
    We'd like to keep VARUA as original as possible with all wood parts, this effort may sacrifice more weight and reduced acceleration speed. I don't believe top end speed will be that noticeable but we plan to test boat weight differences this coming Spring and Summer by just adding Lifting weights from our gym.
    Cheers to a warm breeze!
     
  13. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Minnesotan wakes up daily, in SE MN, a good start,

    BobBill Senior Member

    Back then I searched for sailboard masts...carbon...then, they were weaker and cracked bases were easy to fix[ then, we ferruled them to a 6061 AL section, so we could separate them, as way long...I had kiln-dried 2x4s...light and decent with glass sheathes...neither pole had tracks or slide- grooves etc, so we went with hook and loop with sail...all done in garage,

    Hardest part was adding (unplanned) stays...per advice here...as Hobie 18 hull is weak...stays make stepping easy but altered boat-use...all metal work was done by local pro...
    I decided to add cockpit to main hull, for legs, and replace outrigger hull...using Hobie asymmetrical side and its shape...only have single rudder on the main hull or vaca and works...lots of innovation used to symplify buy takes forever to rig...which is a PIA...MO is or should be basic beach rig...not like the fabulous NINJA, which I drool over...maybe should just bought one...and had it shipped here. Alter's rigs are nice, but this MO and the Ninja are much better...
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2022

  14. BobBill
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Minnesotan wakes up daily, in SE MN, a good start,

    BobBill Senior Member

    Winward, I should mention that your idea is fine, save later need for maintenance, wood is very tough, but is also spendy....Sitka Spruce is out of my league...and I had planned to use Tornado hulls from Gent here who lives in TX, but could not pass up deal for hulls nearby, destined for land fill. The innovations came from my need to design and invent...and I learned how difficult riggers have it...from scratch rigging is tough,,,surf here is low and easy, so glass rig works as pre-made.dd
     
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