cypress hull cost vs fiberglass cost.

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by boatbuilder41, Mar 28, 2013.

  1. boatbuilder41
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    boatbuilder41 Senior Member

    I know a lot of people dont know what i am talking about. Most have own
    ed several boats but not many people have owned a wood plank boat. Didnt a wood boat cost less to build a few decades ago. I love my wood boats but the price of this cypree is killing me.it is all #1 grade 2" thick deadhead cypress. It must cost a fortune to build this boat in todays lumber prices.anybody know any cheap sawmills.
     
  2. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Crossroads Lumber has rough cut cypress planks at a location at the intersection of US 41 and SR 52 in Pasco County. I will take a look for it.
     
  3. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

  4. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Obviously Cypress is a generic term that covers a multitude of different species. What we call Cypress over here has more knots than would be at all healthy used to plank a boat, but it is valued for its resistance to white-ant (termite) attack !
     
  5. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    You might consider alternatives to the cypress, some might cost much less and hold up better. Alaskan Yellow cedar is an excellent replacement, and fairly durable. Philippine mahogany is another popular replacement, though somewhat heavier.

    the material costs to build a wood boat is actually less, but the labor is much higher. So it is still popular for home builders, even though the long term maintenance is very labor intensive. The few people who can afford to commission an large all wood boat I think do it to show off how much they can afford to have a pretty wood boat.
     
  6. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Actually in the southeast Bald Cypress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxodium_distichum) is cheaper and more readily available than cedar. Could be other way round in the northwest, so you could both be right.

    As for the cost of the boat, it depends on how you value labor, and if you're making more than one. If you value your labor time at minimum wage or higher you'd probably do better buying a good okoume plywood kit and building your boat stitch & glue.

    Anyone care to give an opinion on whether this definition of cedar is on the mark?

    For my purpose, members of the following genii may be considered cedars:
    • Cedrus - Cedar of Lebanon, Atlas Cedar, Deodar Cedar
    • Thuja - Western Red Cedar, Northern White Cedar, Japanese/Korean/Sichuan Thuja
    • Chamaecyparis - Atlantic White Cedar, Port Orford Cedar, Alaskan Yellow Cedar, 2 types of Cypress in Japan, 2 types of Cypress in Taiwan
    • Calocedrus - Incense Cedar (California, Chinese, Taiwan)
    • Cryptomeria - Sugi (Japanese Cedar)
    The following are considered close cousins:
    • Other members of the subfamily Cupressoideae including:
      • Cupressus - Mexican White Cedar, many Cypresses
      • Juniperus - Eastern Red Cedar, Southern Red Cedar, many Junipers
      • Austrocedrus - Chilean Cedar
      • Glyptostrobus - Chinese Swamp Cypress
      • Libocedrus - Kawaka
      • Platycladus - Chinese Arborvitae
      • Podocarpus
      • Tamarix
      • Tetraclinis - Sandarac
      • Thujopsis - Asunaro, Japanese Cypress
      • Widdringtonia - Mountain Cypress
    • The subfamily Athrotaxidoideae - Tasmanian Cedar
    • The subfamily Sequoioideae - Redwood, Chinese Water Fir
    • The subfamily Cunninghamhioideae - [Asian relative of Redwood]
    • The subfamily Taiwanioideae - [Asian relative of Redwood]
    The following are considered more distant cousins:
    • Other members of the family Cupressaceae including:
      • The subfamily Taxodioideae - Bald Cypress + many others
      • The subfamily Callitroideae - Cypress-Pine, Australian Cypress
    • Cedrela - Spanish Cedar, Cedro
    I do not consider the following to be cedars:
    • Melia - Chinaberry
    • Toona - Toona, Australian Red Cedar
    • Pinus - notably Pinus Sibirica (Siberian Pine, Siberian Cedar)

    Should Austrocedrus and/or The subfamily Athrotaxidoideae be considered among the true cedars? Anyone want to make the case? Is Cryptomeria a true cedar?
     
  7. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

      • This is the one we are talking about, growing all over the swampy regions of the Southeast even into Kentucky and very abundant in Florida.
     

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  8. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    What a boat costs is the Round Trip, not just hull cost.

    What it costs to obtain and outfit it and then finally sell it.

    Selling a wooden boat in many parts of the world , no matter how well built , may raise the round trip by 1000%
     
  9. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Cypress is Ok for a heavy work skiff. I wouldnt use it as the skin for a small boat.

    Cedar and oak are the woods for small boats. Bronze fasteners are expensive. Wood boats need annual maintenance and a caring owner.

    Difficult to beat plywood for a small craft.

    Lapstrake ply uses a minimum of epoxy and produces a good low maintenance boat.

    Stitch and glue is the best .. perhaps one thousand for wood and plywood , 1000 for epoxy products and disposables , 500 for paint and hardware fit out.

    2500 will produce a robust ,small, stitch and glue skiff
     
  10. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    Our Florida cypress is an ideal material for building small skiffs, particularly those that will be left outdoors or in the water and left unattended and allowed to fill with water. I have owned several such boats in the distant past. I left them in the lake and generally ignored them until I wanted to use them. All that is good recommendation if you plan to treat the boat as if it was just an old barge.

    There are some downsides though. Florida swamp cypress loves water. It will absorb its own weight of moisture right away if left exposed. Some of it is oily and can cause problems with adhesives like epoxy. It is beautiful wood that I like very much but I won,t be building any more boats with it.
     
  11. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Its just heavy.
     
  12. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Here I agree with you Hoytedow:
    However I want to make it clear that I don't consider Bald Cypress to be a Cedar. I consider it a distant cousin.
     
  13. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    For a one-off build, I got far, far cheaper quotes for foam-fiberglass than any other material, even from shops that are famous for wood construction (people who are probably much more productive building in wood than you will be).

    The cost of foam and fiberglass is quite low, as its a commodity -- builders can and do shop around.

    The key thing is that the labor is much less, because all the shaping work is done using easy to shape material, not strong stiff hard to shape material like wood that is thick enough to be structural. Modern one-off builders make the one-off mold using athwartship particle board usually CNC cut and mounted on a strong back. These "frames" are close together -- like a foot apart -- and are then covered with thin door skin ply to get close to the shape. Then cover this stuff with something like bondo -- a thin foam that is very easy to shape smoothly. Once smooth, cover with a layer of glass with a good finish resin, so its smooth so the part will pop off easily.

    If using male molds, then all the fairing is done in a comfortable way, on the outside of the mold. Then you lay up the part (hull, deck) and again you do the exterior finish fairing on the outside so its far easier to do. This way both the inside and the outside is smooth, good for of so many reasons.

    And the result is a boat that will have far better resale value than any wood boat. A wood boat by a super good builder will still be worth less than a glass boat by the same builder. And the wood boat will cost more and take longer and require more maintenance.
     
  14. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Much of that sounds right, but I'd note that female molds generally result in a fair final product out of the mold, while building off a male mold usually requires additional fairing and sanding. And my recommendation not to skimp on materials still applies. You can use cheap stuff to build the mold - but I'd use epoxy resin rather than polyester for the boat, and it's important to fill all the kerfs and use a good bedding compound to attach core to skins if building a sandwich hull. Your ability to control the resin percentage is critical to weight control, and you MUST chase out all bubbles or your fiberglass will be weak. Vacuum bagging is recommended. You might want to check out http://www.compositesworld.com/products/gel-coat-for-epoxy-infusion. Wear a resperator, rubber gloves, and disposable full body covering.

    If you're not comfortable working with large quantities of chemicals, I still say go with Bruynzeel (or Shelmarine or maybe Joubert) BS1088 Okoume plywood (with a single layer of thin fiberglass/epoxy sheathing). Get it accurately precut and the only thing you'll need that's not part of the boat is a simple strongback (no fancy jig required).
     

  15. srimes
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    srimes Senior Member

    How is the framing handled when a male mold is used? Seems like the hull would be likely to deform when pulled from the mold.
     
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