CSC 30 Catamaran- the coastal passage

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by peterchech, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    98, 99, 100 Change hands. ;)
     
  2. haiqu
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    haiqu Junior Member

    Depends whose website you read. Boatcraft Pacific state 2% difference, and their hoop pine is only slightly heavier than Pink but made to higher standards (AS2272 vs BS1088). It's the hardwood stuff that gets a lot heavier.

    http://www.boatcraftnsw.com.au/marineply/MARINE PLYWOOD 2009 UPDATE.pdf
     
  3. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Lets compare apples with apples shall we;
    From the Boatcraft price list.

    6mm PinkMarine Red Meranti 10.4kg 2440x1220 $92.42

    6.5mm Hoop Pine 9.5 kg 2400x1200 $207.27

    6mm Gaboon 9kg 2440x1220 $153.38

    Denman Marine Bruynzeel (Gaboon aka Okoume)

    6mm (9kg) 2500x1220 $140
     
  4. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    What makes you think that?
     
  5. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

  6. haiqu
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    haiqu Junior Member

    Yes, let's actually do that. For the Meranti, you've quoted the price for a 9mm sheet, which is what's required to build a the CSC30. For 6mm it's $64.68 a sheet. Likewise the 6.5mm Hoop Pine is $155.89, the 6mm Gaboon is $109.03 and the Bruynzeel - the only one you got right - is $140.00

    To quote you, "98, 99, 100 Change hands." :)
     
  7. haiqu
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    haiqu Junior Member

    I'm a tightass?
    The Hartley Sparkle paper plans are $75.00 ?
    A secondhand yacht can be had for less than the $1500.00 Waller is asking?

    Pick one.

    Even the first is acceptable to me. I thoroughly agree with Fatty Goodlander's philosophy there. I can highly recommend his ebook, "How to Buy, Outfit and Sail a Small Vessel Around the World."
     
  8. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Well I ballsed that up didn't I ! Lesson, don't post from a phone without reading glasses!
    Haiqu; I detect animosity, seriously ? I don't care what you do. I thought the one handed quote was funny and was going along with it, not having a go. Good luck to you.
     
  9. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Given the number of hours it must have taken Waller to create the design, $1500 seems cheap. That's a bit over a week's pay for a typical Aussie. How long do you think it would take him to design a boat (including stress calculation, layup/construction details, calculation of MoI of spars, CLR/CLE analysis, let alone the whole weight and displacement calculation and interior design) and how many of each design could he sell? I've known a couple of multi designers and I've never known a rich one.

    The multi designers I have known were not exactly overpaid. By the way, the Sparkle plans now cost the same as they did in the '60s (not even allowing for inflation) but surely only because it's an outdated boat that has amortised the design cost over 50 years. Cheaper modern construction methods would probably save you more than the cost of the Waller plans.

    By the way, will your Hartley mast be light enough for a small cat? And how much is it worth? There are second hand spars popping up from time to time that may be better value.
     
  10. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    I am a tightass,
    Hartley Sparkle 75buck,
    Ebay cheapa Waller............

    Haiqu haiku,

    Fatty must be an interesting character.

    Best wishes from Jeff
     
  11. haiqu
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    haiqu Junior Member

    Don't get your knickers in a twist, I thought it was funny.
     
  12. haiqu
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    haiqu Junior Member

    Oh, boo hoo for all those poor yacht designers. If they can't make a living it's time to do something else. As for the "average Aussie" having an income of $1500pw ... hahaha. Bulldust. In my last year of work before retirement I earned $42k with an average of half that since 1980.

    I've seen "modern construction methods" and prefer the solid older designs myself. Laminating roof supports isn't particularly difficult. If I have one minor niggle with Hartley plans it's that they still haven't been converted to metric. Same goes for just about every old classic airplane design as well.

    The Hartley plans aren't the same price but the difference is marginal. At inception they sold for 30 pounds in NZ, whereas they're US$70 now. But Hartley didn't rely on one set of plans, he had dozens of designs and an active network of agencies worldwide selling plans for him, which they undoubtedly got far cheaper than retail. Being a yacht designer today is a bit like manufacturing valve amplifiers. The game is dead and gone but some people haven't realized it yet.


    It's aluminium which I believe is about 6kg per metre, should be light enough. I agree the original timber mast may have been too heavy.

    Worth? On the secondhand market you can find a small aluminium mast and boom for about $750 or so if you wait around long enough. Since I also have a matching furler and new sails this makes it a good proposition. But right now I'm investigating a 2009 model foam and glass cat that turned turtle and lost its mast. Expensive but low maintenance and will hold its value.
     
  13. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    They can make a living, it's just that some people whine like dingoes about the price they charged to make that living. And lots of them ARE doing something else, which is why there are so few designs and designers these days.

    The median Australian full-time worker's income in 2015 was $1000 per week. Source http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/10/what-is-the-average-australian-wage-in-2015/ Of course most designers have qualifications and are middle-aged men, so their typical income is a lot higher than the median for all Australians.

    That means that $1500 for a design is $500 to $100 more than the typical week's pay, depending on how you define it. In the context of building a boat, $100 to $500 isn't significant bucks.

    It goes without saying that you have to allow for the fact that multihull designers don't get the usual employee's benefits like compo, holidays etc and they have to pay their own office bills, including buying computers, running websites, printing off plans, paying insurance etc. The designers I know earn a lot less designing multis than they can do in their "real" jobs.

    If you're such a smartie and it's that easy that means you should able to have your own design finished next week - all calculations, full layup, full flotation, full rig design, the whole lot - so why are you even looking at buying a design? If it's that easy, show us all how it's done.
     
  14. ElGringo
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    ElGringo Senior Member

    CT249... I don't want to get involved in an argument but I have never bought a design, nor built a boat so I would like to ask. If I pay a designer the $1,500 you mentioned to design me a boat, is the design mine? I paid for it. Can he sell it to someone else? If he sells a hundred copies of the design he makes 150K for that weeks work. If I buy the design and want to build a dozen boats do I have to pay $1,500 per boat to build them?

    I know the designer spent a lot of time and money learning their trade but making $150,000 for a weeks work would seem a bit more than reasonable. It seems that something is wrong with the present system but I have no idea as to fixing it.

    I want to design my own boat but don't have the knowledge to do so, and there is no place I can find answers to my questions other than going back to school. At 71 years of age that ain't going to happen. I've had people tell me to buy this book or that book. I did and I still don't know the proper way to attach a catamaran cross beam to a hull. So, I can understand people being frustrated with the system.

    I'll continue to pick up a bit here and there and find a picture or two to help, and I will design my boat. Will I build it? Probably not.
     

  15. haiqu
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    haiqu Junior Member

    So the average $1000pw, not $1500pw. And that figure is bolstered by about 30% of the country being overpaid public servants who earn far more than the average.

    As for older white males being paid more, I'm pretty sure that stopped in the 70s mate. Wimminz litigation fixed all that long ago. The reality is that after 40 job opportunities dry up rapidly, whether you're male or female and regardless of qualifications.


    I've been self-employed, I know all this. So what?


    I torch your straw man. I don't remember saying I was intending to buy anyone's design or design my own, but since I am an engineer it wouldn't be difficult, especially since design software takes most of the hard work out of the calculations these days. And that's why anyone wanting a career as a yacht designer today has rocks in their heads.
     
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