cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    I fear Vega request is a bit biased because Vega wants to buy an Oceanis 393 and his wife would prefer a motorboat. So he has to show her that an Oceanis is the best and only choice he could make.:p

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=85093
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=86182

    I have already said that no volume powerboat manufacturer would be fool enought to try to compete againts mainstream sail boats. (beneteau only has 3 sailboats in that range: first 40.3, oceanis 393 and cyclade 39. I do not speak of other manufacturers as bavaria, elan etc ... etc ...).

    But if ou look at small production, or one off designs, you can find:
    http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jean-pierre.brouns/doc/SILENT TROLLER 40.zip
    http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jean-pierre.brouns/doc/JMF 39.zip
    You have M Joubert design "King Atlantique" build by Meta (sorry, not internet reference).
    http://www.tadroberts.ca/passagemakerlite.html# (the 39 if you can display the picture).
    http://www.kastenmarine.com/moxie.htm ( http://www.kastenmarine.com/molly.htm a bit small)

    More production but smaller and lower cost :
    http://www.babac-yachten.de/babac/Adria1000.htm with the 80 hp cummins
    http://www.sas-vektor.hr/prod04.htm
    The above boat shows powerboats fate. They start as true displacement powerboats, but as customer request more speed (and are willing to pay for it), they add power, not always redesigning the boat. The best illustration of this trend is the Grand Banks 42 who started life with twin 120 hp and ended life with twin 420 hp. The new replacing model starts with twin 500 hp.
     
  2. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

  3. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    fcfc - you are entirely correct about the 'power creep' that afflicts the production power boat world. We are in some ways a victim of our own technological advancement. With the legislated 'greening' of our powerplants, manufacturers have advanced the efficiency of the modern marine engine to a point that few would have considered possible even ten years ago.

    The reality, as I've said before, is that the vast majority of people use their boats very little - or are at least underway for very little time. How often do you look at an advertised boat, three or four years old, with only 100 - 200 hours on the engine(s)? For these people, a boat that does 30 knots and offers apartment-like living, but can only manage 1 nmpg is a far more attractive option than a less lavish, 8 knot plodder that can do 10 nmpg.

    Volume production manufacturer's naturally recognise this, so aim their boats squarely at the biggest market. Which effectively narrows our search for an economical powerboat to either niche builders - like Nordhavn - or custom builders. Which by their very nature are unlikely to be able to compete on it\nitial purchase price with the Oceanis that vega id trying to sell to his wife!;) :D
     
  4. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Of course, you are correct, but you should add that the market is so scarce in cruising motorboats, because sailors that want to cruise, chose cruising sailboats:D , as fcfc has already pointed out.

    About that talk about my wife, I will get back to it when I have time:mad: , but I should point out that I personally don't like the Oceannis, even if I consider that most cruiser sailors do. That's why I have chosen that boat. It is a typical cruising sailing boat, and contrary to the cruising motorboats, I could have chosen between dozens of them, I wonder why?:rolleyes:
     
  5. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Thaks for the input (the boats). I will look at them later.;)
     
  6. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    People who typically sail choose that range. People who typically go power go to 28-32 ft power boats, two cabins, 18-20 kts cruise, week end use (at least in europe). You find in that range not only the antares 980 , but also both janneau merryfisher 925 and prestige 32, ACM elite 31, all this from main french builders. You also have rodman, nimbus, aquador etc ...

    The croatian builder who produces the adria (a older model I think) produces also a 36 and 40 ft sailboats. Same range as oceanis/ cyclades 373 393. But also the vektor 950, something between antares 880 and 980 less luxury.

    Another marketing point is that displacement powerboats are on the boring side. There no much to do aboard beyond looking the landscape. And even, you cannot be far offshore to see it and it does not change fast.

    One can spend an afternoon sailing at 2 knots average around three buoys. I have done it, even slower, when no wind. But I have never seen powerboats owners to do the same (going at two knots or less around buoys) to see who makes best uses of his boat.

    The correspondant use of powerboats would be fishing. But that need some speed to follow fishes and birds.
     
  7. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    It is possible to build offshore cruising motor boat for less money then a sailing boat of similar size. Principles to achieve that are established in a naval architecture long ago. Many older working boats from the times before modern high power / lightweight engines were built that way. If they are narrow for their length, kept simple, relatively light, low, (low windage), they will move with a little resistance at the displacement speeds. They can also heave simple and cheap steadying rig which can minimise rolling and help the engine a bit, as well as give back up in the case of mechanical failure. If built from a metal, it's quite easy to make them un- capsizeble - deckhouse with a strong, small windows and watertight hatches takes care of that.

    It should look similar to the sardine carriers or old Dutch steel coast guard vessels
     

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  8. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    SteadySailer

    What about the SteadySailer?
    http://www.chuckpaine.com/zsteadysailer.html

    "The Paine STEADYSAILER is a name we have coined for this new type of yacht. With that name, you'd expect her to be a motoryacht with a steadying sail, and she is certainly that. But she's also a whole lot more. She is the embodiment of the term Motorsailor. She is designed and optimized for motorsailing, which is what the majority of pure cruising sailboats do much of the time anyway. All experience sailors know what a huge difference in speed is made just by having the engine ticking over slowly when under sail, or the sails up and drawing when under power. The PAINE STEADYSAILER is intended to always have the engine running, so that the yacht travels at a given speed (say 10 knots) at ALL TIMES, no matter the state of the wind. Thus she will make good 240 nautical miles per day, or over 1000 statute miles every four days, no matter what. STEADY speed, rather than the presence of a steadying sail, is what gives this design its name."
     

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  9. Milan
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    Milan Senior Member

    Yes, I think that Steady Sailor is very near to what we are talking about. She reminds me of William Hand's designs. Francis Herreshoff also designed a few interesting boats in this cathegory.
     
  10. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Milan, welcome to this discussion.

    You are right, it is possible to build a 40ft cruising motor boat for less money than a sailing boat of similar size. (We will restrict the discussion to this size, or to the size necessary to offer the same interior space of the Oceanis 39. After all we are concerned here with costs, and economical cruising. Not much sense into looking to bigger boats than the ones that are already comfortable cruising boats, and I am referring here to the Oceanis.)

    But I don’t agree that you could have an offshore efficient cruising boat for less money (regarding fuel consumption) with the same interior space of the Oceanis 39.

    The boat that you are describing (except in what concerns oceangoing characteristics) exists already in production. It has a slightly more powerful engine than the one that is necessary to travel at hull speed, but I am sure you can mount a less powerful motor on this boat.
    I am talking about a Nigel Irens design and he says about it:

    “This design primarily aims to satisfy the needs and desires of owners who have previously only owned sailing cruisers. To this end the idea is to replace the often noisy and bumpy 'sprint' approach to voyaging under power in a planing-hulled powerboat with a quieter and less frenetic approach to passage-making.

    A realistic cruising speed is typically between about 13 and 15 knots, although the hull itself will still be efficent at speeds up to about 20 knots (15 knots requires about 80 hp of applied power.)”


    This boat is produced by Seatec, a French company and the boat has been certified by the EU authorities as a class C boat, meaning that it is only intended for coastal traveling in semi-protected waters.

    Besides, if you look at the interior space you will find that it is rather small, not by any means a match for the oceanis. It is quite easy to understand why: This boat has a beam of 3,3 m and the Oceanis has a 4,0 beam and that on a 12m boat are a lot of square meters.
    For the same interior space you would have to go for the 14m boat (drawing) and that one will certainly cost a lot more than the Oceanis. Fact is that I am convinced that even the 40ft will cost a lot more than the Oceanis.

    Of course that will probably be because the Oceanis is a mass produced boat and this one is not. But the truth is that you can buy the Oceanis with a lot less money that any production cruising motorboat of this type and sailors are not interested in what would be possible, but in what they can afford with their money.

    (Guillermo, it was in this kind of boat that I was thinking when I said that for having the same interior space you would need a longer boat.)

    About seaworthiness we have a design problem here, because to have lots of stability in a small boat you need lots of beam and that is no good for economy. All the oceangoing motorboats of this size are beamier boats.
    The only other way to go is the one you described:

    ” If built from a metal, it's quite easy to make them un- capsizeble - deckhouse with a strong, small windows and watertight hatches takes care of that.”

    And that description suits very well to some lifeguard boats. A boat like that would be very uncomfortable in heavy seas, but if built very strongly in metal with special windows and storm shutters, it would be a very seaworthy boat, but also a hugely expensive boat. Do you have an idea of the price of a lifeguard boat?

    The boats you show in your post are all right, but they are huge, comparing with 40ft, and they have to be, to be seaworthy with a relatively small beam. That hull design is not really suitable to a small 40ft boat, if you want to have an offshore cruising boat.

    http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/FRAMEpower.htm
    http://www.rangeboat.com/index.php
    http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/FRAMElaunch.htm
     

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  11. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Come on Guillermo, this is an interesting boat, but with a SAIL AREA of 831 sq.ft, It is not a motorboat, it is a motorsailor:D
    And with 58ft it will be an expensive boat. Remember we are talking abot small budget cruising. (I am not considering 27ft boats yet), but one with 58ft is really out of the scope of this discussion about: economical cruising --sail boat versus motorboat on the 40ft range.
    At least for me :p
     
  12. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    I think you guys are still missing the point to some extent. We are not (necessarily) talking about budget cruising. Nor should we be restricting our search to boats around 40 feet. Nor should we only use the Oceanis as our example sailboat.
    What we are attempting to examine - and I know I'm starting to sound like a recording! - is that it is not necessarily cheaper to operate a sailboat than an equivalently equipped power boat. Period.
    The Dashew example has already demonstrated the point in one instance, so my original statement has already proved to be correct. However I agree that we should also examine the case for vessels of other sizes and types.
    To this end, I've emailed PDQ: an American multihull manufacturer that produces both sail and powercats for their input. We'll have to wait to see if they reply....

    btw - thanks for the Irens pics - whether they are pertinent to the discussion or not, they're lovely looking boats!:D
     
  13. fcfc
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    fcfc Senior Member

    The rangetech is a picnic boat, not a cruise boat. I think the price is around 275000€. The competitor of the rangeboats id the andreyale 40. http://www.motorboating.com/motorboat/seatrials/article/0,12696,553628,00.html price a bit beyond an oceanis.

    I saw on the net the price of the MLB74 (Motor Life Boats) listed as 1 250 000$.

    But whatabout JMF 39 or tanton 247/ tameta (http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2026/size/big/si/tameta/perpage/12 ) for a more readable view.

    Both have about same length, same beam, same empty weigth as the oceanis. So about the same interior space. Both have twin engines volvo D2 75 saildrive. Both are more rugged than an oceanis. Built in strongall instead of fiberglass. Something like 10mm (3/8") thick AL for sides and 12 mm(1/2") for bottom.

    For initial cost, an oceanis would have a rig / sails / deck hardware , ballast, and one d2-55. For theses powerboats, you only have 2 d2-75. The only problem is that the oceanis is "mass" produced if we can speak so. More automated production. and the powerboats are one off. The other point is that beneteau certainly have a good weigth when negotiating with sub contractors or suppliers.

    For catamarans, excluded by vega, PDQ34 and fountaine pajot Highland 35 are on the expensive side. Also for marinas, they do not have the draft of a sailboat, but they do have beam. And both are on the heavy side with wide hulls for accomodations. I think to be power efficient, a catamaran MUST be LIGTH and have NARROW hulls. as :
    http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/boats.php?boat=39
    http://www.stanyonmarine.com.au/pdfs/10M DART BROCHURE.pdf
    Here, we are about half the weigth of PDQ34/Hihland 35, for about the same length/beam.
     
  14. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Appears to be two conversations here, one on initial purchase price, the other on comparison of operating costs.

    Dashew does not mention initial cost comparison but I would suspect that if you duplicated both boats (Beowulf and Windhorse) today, eliminating development costs, Beowulf would be more expensive. On operating cost it must be remembered that these two boats are the centerpieces in a large commercial operation, they are showboats and are used and maintained as such. Also note that if the usual half-wit stinkpotter :p got hold of the throttle on Windhorse, Steve's equation would be upside down in minutes. (Because the engines are only using half the fuel they could if bumped up to 2600 RPM.)

    I.e. the comparison is only good in a narrow set of circumstances.

    On moderate cost cruising powerboats;
    My 2005 price comparison sheet shows
    38' Mariner Double Cabin with 135HP $229k USD
    39'9" Mainship 39 Trawler with 370HP at $244k USD
    36' Mainship 34 with 240HP at $187k USD
    41'8" Selene 36 with 210HP at $299k USD
    39' Krogen 39 with 120HP at $425k USD
    38'6" Integrity 386ES with 225HP at $292k USD

    In looking at the used market (Yachtworld) I find many full displacement Taiwanese built "trawler yachts" in the 30'-40' range available at from $75k to $150k USD. There are hundreds of similar sized cruising sailboats (Production fiberglass) 15-30 years old, available for about half the cost of similar length powerboats. Generally I am looking at North America.

    All the best, Tad
     

  15. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Yes, we are talking only about budget cruising and this thread is only about that.

    When you replied to Fred saying that: “It's a mistake to think that buying a sailboat will save you money” you were referring to budget cruising, or putting it in Fred’s words, about the -“hard working family who wants to cruise and save their bucks while doing so”.

    Let’s put that sentence of yours in the right context:


    So, we are talking about “low bucks”.


    About this I agree. The Oceanis 39 is the upper end of the budget cruising.

    Perhaps we should consider a substantially less expensive boat like the new Bavaria 37 or the Harmony 38, both oceangoing boats (class A) and suitable to cruise in comfort.
    Perhaps these two were more adequate to low budget cruising, but I have thought that it is more difficult for a 38ft motorboat to be seaworthy and inexpensive and that’s why I have suggested the Oceanis. It seems fairer to me…but if you, or the other guys, want to make a suggestion, I am listening.


    http://www.bavaria-yachtbau.com/bavaria_e.php?nav=boot&boot_id=12

    http://www.poncinyachts.com/Poncin/Poncinyachts.nsf/VuSitesStatiquesW/Poncin_Yachts_Voiliers_Harmony_Harmony_38!OpenDocument&Langue=En&YTabProduit=A

    Believe me will, I am not trying to prove anything nor trying to justify my options (for me, pleasure comes first, second, pleasure and third – Can I afford it?, nothing rational here).

    I am just curious about it. Anyway I have already told you that it seems completely pointless to me to try to see which of two multimillion dollar boats is more economical, regarding its propulsion or style, sailboat or motorboat.
    In a thread about “low bucks cruising” it is completely out of order.

    But, as I have pointed out to you, the only thing shown in that comparison made by Mr Dashew is that he did not make his calculations well.

    I have shown to you, using the same proportions he has used, that his motorboat, cruising in Europe, will be already 12% more expensive.

    He obviously didn’t consider the inevitable rise of fuel prices in his calculations. If he had done that and had calculated the cost over a 10 or 15 years period, regarding also fuel price, as he has done to the replacement of sails and engines, he would not be able to say how much more the motorboat would be more expensive, but it would be without any doubt substantially more expensive to own.

    Rather strange concern I would say. If you have the money for an 80ft multimillion luxury boat, you should not be concerned about cruising costs:rolleyes:
     
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