cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    Nice boat but I guess that you are a little bit optimistic.
    If we use the Volvo engine configurator for choosing the engine, considering a cruising speed of 9k an economic cruising speed of 8k and a max speed of 10.5k, we end up with the d3-160, a 156hp engine.

    That will give between 1,6 and 1,8L per nautical mile.

    But for a boat like that, regarding economy, it is not the price of fuel that counts most but the initial price. Have you asked Chuck Paine for an estimate? I would say between US$500 000 and US$800 000. These values will put away any idea of inexpensive cruising, no matter the fuel comsumption.

    A low consumption, regarding the initial cost of a boat like this will only be important if you really make an annual very high mileage.
     

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  2. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    This is your boat? It’s a nice one. It looks like a Dick Zall design but I am sure it is not. Who is the designer?

    The problem is that a sailing boat is made for sailing. If in such a small boat you put 1700L of fuel and many liters of water, it will not sail well, no matter what.

    I would prefer a very good and light sailing boat, a boat that can sail with 8k of wind, with a 150L fuel tank. On a boat like that you can make a fast crossing using the engine only for the batteries.

    But of course, this is personal and it has to do with cruising style and in the end with lifestyle.
     

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  3. tpayne
    Joined: Nov 2006
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    tpayne Junior Member

    Ryder 52

    Vega

    I expect your fuel consumption figures are closer to the truth. When I did a rough calculation I also got approx 1.5 l/nm at 8 knots cruising speed.

    As for the initial price ..... the Chuck Paine website says

    "The Ryder 52 will deliver extremely high quality at a price that is within the reach of the common man"

    Which is probably " beyond the reach" of this common man.......

    Oh well.....tis enough to dream....
     
  4. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    :p :p I believe that Chuck Pain's concept of a common man is a rather strict one ;)
     
  5. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    well she cruised at 18500kg loaded, for 54 feet that is light, and she sailed well, no I built her and sailed her as sailing master
     
  6. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    alan mummery did a lot of it and i did all the construction, design, she had a strong 4b cummins, gave her 10.5 top and 8.5 cruise, 130--150 would have been waste
    met Paine, will say no more
    cept his fees are too much there are guys in here will design(well) for an hourly rate
     
  7. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Sorry about that. The boat looked smaller:) . You are right; 18.5T is not heavy for that kind of boat. Now it looks even better even if what I really like is ULD boats (the 16 M Cigale weights 11T, probably 12.5 loaded).
     
  8. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    i forgive you:)) yes but Vega, you cruise from here or NZ to the Pacific islands, you need lots of things, I forget how many kg it takes to bring her down 1 cm, about 480 I think, , She has 160mm of antifoul showing before loading of provisions
    , so thats 4 tonnes of Bully beef!! and half a tonne of Vodka
    Now I,m going back to basics with my next, kero lamps, candles, wind vane sec rudder powerful rig, tiny engine BUT given my advancing years I will put on a hydraulic capstan, why Hyd? cos oil motors dont get tired like dc motors and tiny batterys
     
  9. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Never enough...I mean dreaming;)

    Take a look at this Aluminium 54ft beauty (2x130hp).

    Designed by Patrice Laurent and Franck Burgard and offered by a French aluminium shipyard.
     

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  10. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

    That is one lovely looking boat Vega,but..................

    Having recently delivered a powered 8 knot monohull with a yacht hullshape from Australia to Vanuatu, man do they get a roll up.

    How would that issue be adressed.
    Dave
     
  11. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    but where are the roll stableizers:))
     
  12. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    oh for those buck with that boat, roll stableisers are pretty much standard
    Vosper thornycroft had em for yonks
    When THE CUP was in NZ I went on some of those boats the stabilisers knocked out all the roll,
    The Aussie and USA home built versions are to tow paravane flopper stoppers, cheap, effective, hard on fuel and impose enourmous stresses on the hull
     
  13. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon


    Yep, and the extra cost of stabilizer's, and the extra fuel of paravanes would have to make one consider the extra dollars of a powercat.

    Unless of course one has berthing restrictions like Vega.

    But for those that don't........................

    More space, more comfort, no spilt beer.

    Dave
     
  14. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    Hello there, and welcome to this thread. I apologize for not replying sooner but I have a lot of work these days.

    Yes, in some cases cruising with a sailing boat can be more expensive than cruising with a motorboat. That happens if you don’t make a high annual mileage, even if the initial price of the boat is really what counts most..

    Can you tell us how many miles you have covered in the 10 years you have been living abord?

    Regarding the price of a sailboat versus motorboat, the fact that the boat is built by you tend to mix the reality. No way of getting a boat like that, built by a shipyard by that price. If that boat was built at a shipyard, the mast, rigging and sails would only account for 10 to 20% of the boat’s price and that would put all the importance in the initial price of the boat, if we consider economy.

    Unlike cruising motorboats, cruising sailboats are made in large numbers by some large manufacturers like Bavaria or Beneteau and that allows that large production sailboats are a lot less expensive than cruising motorboats. The 15% cost of rig and sails is absorved by the huge gains provided by mass production.

    One can ask why there are not big production displacement motorcruisers, because if there would, they would cost 15% less than their cruising siblings. The reason is that there are not a large demand for displacement cruising motorboats.The vast majority of Motorcruisers prefer planning motorboats and the market reflects that.

    Besides initial price, another reason why it can be more expensive to cruise in a mototboat is that for having the same seaworthiness you need a bigger boat. That happens not only by the nedd of space for having a big fuel tank and two engines but also for stability reasons. Of corse this is not true if you only want to do Coastal cruising in fair weather conditions.


    Of course, if the boat is built by yourself that’s a completely different ball game. Even if the need of a bigger boat remains (if ocean passages are in the program) the economy that comes from mass production doesn’t count and as you are not taking into account the price of your own work, the percentage of the cost of the rig and sails regarding the overall cost of the boat will be more than 15%.

    I agree with you about the deck saloon boat. If we want to enjoy cruising and nice places it makes no sense to live in a basement, even if some modern cruising mass production sailingboats have recently appeared with some relatively large hull portlights that provide you with a view from the interior saloon.

    Deck saloon boats don’t need a significantly more powerful engine. Manufacturers that have the same hull with the two versions normally use a 30% more powerful engine.

    Regarding the autonomy and the consumption of your future boat, I don’t understand your calculations.
    For having that autonomy you should waste only 0.6L/Mile. With two 55hp engines you should waste about 1.5L/Mile. Even if in very good weather conditions you could run only on one engine, your consumption would be about 1.3L/Mile. The consumption would be a little bigger if you went with slightly more powerful engines (the extra power would be very useful in bad weather). Considering these numbers the autonomy of the boat will be of about 2300 miles (on one engine) or 2000miles if operated normally, very far from the 5000 miles that you have estimated.

    By this I don’t want to say , considering your particular case and taking into account that you are building the boat yourself and the kind of cruising you want to make, that in your case the more economical option would be a motorboat. I am sure it is. I am only saying that each case is a case and that should be looked individually. I am all against generalizations.

    Keep us posted.

    Regards

    Paulo
     

  15. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

    But of course the reason that a lot of "Serious" cruisers get a boat built, or build one themselves is that they can't get the style of boat they want off the shelf.

    Benetueu's and Bavaria and similar may be OK for a quick holiday, but as far as serious expadition boat, most are lacking.

    Most production boat's are aimed at the masses, production boat's are made to look good in brochures and tied up to marina berth's with lovely sunset's and beaughtiful women lounging around.

    Most production boat's are also built to a price, using inferior material's in most cases, having in most cases unecessary weight due to budget constraints, and systems on board that may fail as soon as over the horizon.

    Also in reply to this by Vega

    "Besides initial price, another reason why it can be more expensive to cruise in a mototboat is that for having the same seaworthiness you need a bigger boat. That happens not only by the nedd of space for having a big fuel tank and two engines but also for stability reasons. Of corse this is not true if you only want to do Coastal cruising in fair weather conditions."

    I recently went from Australia to Vanuatu on the 46 ft Cray Boat pictured with enough Diesel on board to do the trip 3 times over [ 3000 nm ] at 8 knot's.

    Fair enough, we had 44 gallon drum's of fuel on the deck, but the onboard tankage would have almost got us 1700nm.

    This was a far from economical boat, wasting 15lph for it's 8 knot's, but proof that you dont necessarily need a bigger boat and 2 engines, nice but not necessary.

    Stability is not an issue on a powercat

    This vessel cost $47,000 Aud.



    Dave
     

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