cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. Lancerbye
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Lancerbye Junior Member

    One has to remember that the world oil production is only very loosely associated withthe actual cost of fuel and even it is being controlled by the oil cartel that is run from the middle east. I am in that region at the present and gasoline prices at the pumps is 18 to 22 cents a liter depending on if you buy premium or Super. There is no tax here which is why the price is based solely on world market price of crude. The price we pay in Canada ( my home) is over $1.00 a liter. The difference is in the taxes. The world supply is obviously diminishing, but the fortunes that are being made by gouging the consumer should be regarded as criminal. The operational costs of motor boats and vehicles are determined by greed not supply.
     
  2. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    What bias do you talk about? It seems that I am the one that likes sailboats and motorboats, or are you talking about this unusual conception I have, that motorboats should be substantially faster than sailboats?:p Of course this only makes sense if you enjoy sailing too (why should I have a boat that can not sail and does not motor faster than a sailboat, if I enjoy sailing?:rolleyes: ), but it is obvious that even for the vast majority of cruising motorboaters, very slow motorboats don’t make much sense and that’s why there are very few on the market and their total number is residual if compared with the total number of cruising motorboats.

    This thread is not (only) about the boats that I like, It is about all types of cruisers and cruising boats, providing they are not very expensive, with a focus on new production boats. You are welcome unless you come with an attitude like: I have done the right choice, I have the perfect cruising boat and if you don’t think like me you are wrong.

    I don’t keep saying it, but it is true. The Island Packet PY cruiser is obviously a budget motorboat, probably comparable in quality with Beneteaus and Hanses (and that is not bad quality).
    If you want a high quality Island Packet motorboat, you are looking to the wrong line. You have to look at the Island Packet Craft Express. I don’t know how much the 41ft costs, the one that has the same interior space of the Oceanis, but a three year old 36ft costs already usd$80 000 more than a new 41ft Island Packet Py cruiser. And if you think that the difference is in the cost of the engines, think again, they don’t cost half that much.

    http://www.boats.com/new-boats/packetcraft/471420/details.jsp?

    http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=14744&url=


    Now, for comparing” apples to apples so to speak”, you should compare a top quality Island Packet (Packet craft) with a top quality sailboat, like a Halberg-Rassy or a Malo. If you pick a budget quality motorboat, like the Island Packet PY, you should compare it with a budget quality sailboat, like a Beneteau or a Bavaria.

    The problem here is that you don’t have, by a very large margin, a budget quality motorboat that costs as little as a cruising budget quality sailboat, assuming that both have the same interior space. Yes, that is what I have found on this thread.

    What you have found is that a Budget quality slow motorboat costs as much as a top quality sailboat, that is capable of motoring at the same speed anyway.:p

    In this month’s edition of Bluewater sailing magazine, probably the most dedicated magazine to Bluewater cruising and bluewater cruising boats (not only sailboats but also motorboats), the editor wrote in his column:

    “These days, after more than 40 years of production fiberglass boatbuilding, all of the shoddy boatbuilders have been gone out of business and those that remain…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe…the boats you see at the boat shows or at the dealer’s docks will take you and your family just about anywhere you want to sail.”

    I find it very odd that you feel not safe going offshore in one of these boats. Saying: “I would not go further offshore than I could swim in a boat of that quality “ seems to be a very particular opinion about the seaworthiness of these boats. Some would call it a Biased opinion;) .

    About the Oceanis 393 quality and fitness for bluewater sailing, we can take a look at what another reputed American magazine (Sailing) has said about it:

    "Beneteau 393:Stylish and well-built cruiser that can turn bluewater dreams into affordable realities.

    Designed by Berret/Racoupeau, the 393 is well-proportioned and versatile, capable of extended offshore passages and pleasing daysails…

    The fiberglass work on deck is superb, from the intricate molded nonskid pattern to the soft curves that are visually pleasing and structurally sound. Beneteau, the largest sailboat manufacturer in the world, is justifiably proud of its construction techniques.

    It is safe to say that every year more Beneteaus cross oceans on their own bottoms than any other brand of boat…..

    The 393 cockpit is comfortable and well thought out. The 393 is brilliantly set up for easy sail handling. ..

    …Both plans have lovely, cherry-trimmed wood finish. Beneteau’s high level of workmanship, readily apparent in the interior joinerwork and details, might surprise those who think of the company as a production builder. With little touches like convenient pullout blinds for overhead hatches, full-length overhead handrails and a well-placed trash locker in the galley, Beneteau has always found ways to make its boats homey, safe and user-friendly.

    Close reaching, the 393 really found its stride, hitting 7.5 knots in light to moderate conditions. Reaching and running the boat felt well balanced and steering was responsive.

    Overall I was impressed with the handling characteristics, thoughtful design and construction quality, …you won’t have to spend a fortune outfitting the boat after you buy it. With the 393 Beneteau has made our cruising dreams affordable.


    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11796&d=1172707412

    But you don’t have to choose a 393 (now the 40 was substituted the 393). You can choose from many big production quality sailboats of similar price, like the Bavaria 40 Vision, the Hanse 40 or the Oceanis 423. Take a look at what Bluewater sailing magazine has said about them when they tested the boats:

    About the $236,000 Bavaria 40 Vision:

    “ we sailed in Annapolis (and the boat) performed well under both power and sail and will be a lot of fun to live….As it comes from the factory, the 40 Vision is not a ready-to-go offshore cruising boat. But it is a great platform on which a knowledgeable owner can fit out to make it a proper offshore boat. In our inspection of the 40, we did not see any structural or rigging issues that would bar us from sailing the boat far and wide, once well fit out and prepared. With appropriate gear aboard, the 40 will make an excellent floating home, will be safe and stable and could make a fine boat to sail to Mexico or the Caribbean for a winter under the tropical sun."

    About the $200 000 Oceanis 423 :

    “Like other production boats ...the basic 423 out of the box is well enough equipped for coastal cruising. But the boat is also a well designed platform on which to assemble all the cruising gear you might need or want for more extensive sailing. The 423 is strong and stable. For normal cruising in temperate climes and the tropics - where most of us sail - the 423 represents a good cruising option ..."

    About the$189,900 Hanse 400 :

    “the new 400 is not the least expensive boat in the harbor, but it is certainly not the most expensive either.
    Hanse boats and the 400 are designed for sailors who like to sail well, who are looking for a fast cruising boat that is easy for a couple to handle and for a modern, elegant floating home that will take them over the horizon if they wish to go. “


    http://www.bwsailing.com/

    People, don’t get me wrong, I do like motorboats. Some weeks ago I was at a sailor’s party (someone’s birthday and the entire bunch was invited) and a friend was talking about his new motorboat. He was saying that the boat had an amazingly low consumption and that could cruise at 32k.

    That was interesting, everybody was listening.

    That means that I could reach the cruising grounds in less than two days, instead of eight. I like to sail, but if I could do that, I would sail a smaller boat for fun, or racing and I would cruise in a motorboat. I like speed, I like to travel and I don’t have all the time I would like. With the sailboat, I can not go further than Corsica. I would like to cruise in Croatia and Greece. With such a boat it would be possible.

    But I can’t. He is a skipper of a 60ft Pershing and the low consumption is 200L/h. When all the sail guys were laughing about, he explained that the previous boat, that was bigger, but slower, wasted 700L/h. And I don’t even want to know the price of one of those animals; it is way out of my reach. Only the fuel needed to do my usual summer cruising would amount to USD$50000.

    http://www.pershing.it/eng/home_eng.html
     

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  3. Ari
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Port Dickson, Malaysia

    Ari Patience s/o Genius

    cost per outing

    Vega I truly agree with you on this part.I had written last time about the cost incured when a 50 footer sail boat do passage from Australia to Port Dickson( it took them 22 or 24 days) compared to 130 footer motor yacht on the same journey (13 days), the power boat fuel alone at 25k liter of diesel for this trip is enough for the sail boat to go circumnavigate I believe.
     
  4. Portager
    Joined: May 2002
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    Portager Senior Member

    I sorry if I hit a nerve. Nice rant though! I'll try and sugar coat my comments from now on.

    Regarding the reviews quoted, as a rule I do not believe anything I read in a Magazine regarding an advertisers product. The golden rule is still alive and well especially within boating magazines.

    I guess I shouldn't have referred to the sailboats you were referring to as low quality boats. In some cases they are relatively high quality. They are however, IMHO, light weight / fair weather boats that will bob like a cork in rough seas. I personally have no use for or see any value in light weight boats like these, sail or power. Maybe if I lived on a Lake or an inland Sea, but I don't. I live on the Pacific Ocean.

    Since I have always heard that production cost is proportional to displacement, it is not really fair to compare the cost of boats of substantially different weights.

    The only thing that is obvious is that you provided nothing to support your opinion. Just rant banter.

    I am far too busy to spend any more time arguing with a closed minded person. You are welcome to your opinion and we can agree to disagree.

    BTW: I know my solution isn't right for everyone, but when Portager is on the trailer she cruises at 55 knots and gets 7 miles/gallons which equates to 1.75 mi/l or 0.57 l/mi. I can make it to my cruising waters in 18 hours of travel time on the trailer or 106 hours in the water.
     
  5. skipperG
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    skipperG Junior Member

    efficiency?

    Did cats make into this subject? I didn't read all 29 pages yet? :cool:
     
  6. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    I like fast boats and I have nothing against multihulls, except that I normally find the cruising ones fat and ugly and that they cost the double of a similar sized boat at the marina.
    There is an exception, the ones that can fold and reduce beam to a “normal boat beam size” and therefore pay regular rates at the marina.
    I like the Dragonflies and they can do just that, folding their arms. Some years back I was tempted to have a 35ft (1000) Dragon, but in the end good sense has prevailed and I have bought a 36ft monohull sailing boat. I say good sense, because we are a family of four that cruise for almost 45 continuous days in a year and the 35ft Dragonfly just doesn’t have the required space. They have now the 1200; that one has the space but it is expensive and heavy. He is not faster than a fast monohull, and not half the fun sailing, compared with the smaller brother.
    http://www.trimarans.com/

    And of course, a relatively light multihull is less forgiving than a monohull, so you can not just leave the boat on autopilot and forget about it, you have to pay attention…till now, because in the last Route du Rhum all the ORMA boats were equipped with an electronic system, fully programmable that released all sheets when the boat reached a set angle and the system worked perfectly. With a system like that, small cruising multihulls can be made a lot safer and less tiring on the crew.

    And then I have seen this boat and I have thought why not? The boat is a beauty, has folding arms, enough interior space (the boat is made in two versions: Cruising and Racing) and certainly is fast and a joy to sail.

    I could fall for one of these…..but unfortunately it is too expensive. The hull with an engine costs about 300 000 euros, then you have to pay the carbon mast, the performance sails and the interior architecture. 700 000 euros at least, I guess.

    Well, perhaps there is among us someone that wants a fast boat and doesn’t have a budget problem. If someone buys one of those, please can I be invited for a sail? ;)

    http://www.aurigayacht.com/en/krysalid-42.html
     

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  7. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    Logic, simple logic. The Island Packet other line of motorcruisers costs twice the price of the new one. The previous line (the Packet Craft) is not a top quality boat, like the Santa Cruz ( http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11479&page=19 ) but it is a quality motorboat. If, for the same size, the new line of Island Packet costs half of the other line and if the price of the superior engines is not responsible for 1/3 of that difference, the logical conclusion is that the new line has not the same quality of the older line, not for a long shot. Call it budget if you want. I have said that Budget boats are not necessarily bad quality boats, only boats made to a tight budget.

    By the way, an Island Packet sailboat is a lot more expensive than the new “budget” line of motorboats. A 37 ft costs already 50% more than the “ 41' budget cruiser”. We can assume that they have a better overall quality.

    Costs are proportional to quality. High tech materials are expensive and light. Weight is not good in airplanes, cars or boats. Strength is. New materials are lighter and stronger, but I do not wish to discuss with you. This is a thread for close minded people, perhaps you should post here :(http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14860&page=51 ) this one is for open minded people, people that think like you, regarding weight on boats and modern boat design.

    By the way I never criticized your idea of an ideal cruiser. I like diversity, even if your approach is a very particular one.
     
  8. taniwha
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    taniwha Senior Member

    We just sold our 42 ft alu sailing yacht and start building a passagemaker lite 46 from Tad Roberts Design. We are convinced that sailing is more expensive than cruising the PL 46. We have been live aboard for about ten years and spent all these years "down" the hull while we will now enjoy the pleasure of the deckhouse. Yes of course we could also have build a deckhouse sailing yacht which automatically requires a bigger engine (because of extra weight and wind area) but then we realized that for those few hours of real sailing we spent a whole lot of money! Your rigging and sails get used even in the harbour and new rigging every 10 years is a minimum. We plan to build our Passagemaker lite 46 in woodcore with two engines for less than 250 000 euro. If we would build a 46 sailing yacht it would be a lot more because of mast, rigging, winches, sails, hailyards, sheets etc...And our range? About 5000 miles on our 3000 liter fuel tank. Sailing ? The sailing dinghy on the aft deck will be used when the urge to sail is there. www.passagemakerlite.blogspot.com
     
  9. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

    And our range? About 5000 miles on our 3000 liter fuel tank.

    Very impressive economy, had a bit of a look at the site, but found no mention to engines or speed.

    Please fill me in as to what you are using.

    Have fun with it.

    Dave
     
  10. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Australia

    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

  11. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Australia

    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

    Yep, those cruising cat's sure are are ugly.[tongue in cheek]:rolleyes:

    But i'll agree that there are some shocker's out there.


    http://www.fusioncats.com.au/

    http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/welcome.cfm

    Dave
     

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  12. taniwha
    Joined: Sep 2003
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    taniwha Senior Member

    Dave, we have not made our final decision on engine brand but it will be two engines between 50 and 65 hp, you will also find more info on speed and range on www.ataraxia.talkspot.com as well as on the designer's website www.passagemakerlite.com
     
  13. Mark Van
    Joined: Jul 2002
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    Mark Van Junior Member

    I saw the Island Packet PY cruiser at the boat show, next to the motersailer version of it. The boats are identical, except one has a sailing rig added. The price difference was $30,000. That's 10,000 gallons of fuel at todays prices. Figure out how many miles of cruising you would have to do to pay for the rig. Remember that with the motorsailer, you probably would be powering more than half the time. You will probably have to buy a new $10,000 suit of sails before you get to the break-even point. I think that if you do a realistic estimate, you will find out that you will never reach the break-even point.
     
  14. Lancerbye
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    Lancerbye Junior Member

    If cost were the end all in a perfect world with marinas abound, able to accomadate any size and width of vessel, we would probably all want to to be cruising in powered only cats. (in a perfect world there are fuel stations every 200 miles or so.) Boating like life is a comprimise. The intended usage has to be the prime directive. I would have liked a cat with sails and adequate power just because I like having the option depending on circumstance. However moorage of cats in the area I prefer to cruise in is somewhat lacking, So I opted for a monohull twin engine used motorsailer that was in excellent condition. I can cruise at 8 to 10 knots whether under sail or power the sails extend my range and the power allows me to be able to navigate coastal areas that have strong currents with ease. So boating choices are usually based on usage and personal preferences rather than the bottom line, otherwise we would all be cruising in identical boats and that would be boring. The Island Packet is a shortened look alike of the Motorsailer I have actually.
     

  15. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Australia

    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon


    The cost of resin's is also linked to oil prices, so it makes sense to build light, and low powered.

    It is interesting that one can buy Diesel in Malaysia for about .50c/Litre Aud where as in Oz it's about $1-60 Aud

    Guess where I'm going to be based at.

    Dave
     
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