cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. mamo
    Joined: Dec 2006
    Posts: 12
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: istanbul-TURKEY

    mamo Junior Member

    Fountain pajot belize 43

    Lagoon 440 seems like bigger and more comfortable

    belize 43 pictures:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 167
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 38
    Location: Australia

    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon


    Mamo, thats what happens with heavy boats, the cat's i've been talking about would be doing a whole lot better than that.

    Maybe make a decision as to how much stuff you'll really be carying and go from there.

    Dave
     
  3. mamo
    Joined: Dec 2006
    Posts: 12
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: istanbul-TURKEY

    mamo Junior Member

    Highland 35

    Boat was bigger than my guess. İf somebody think to buy a motorboat, and worry about fuel consumption like me, certainly must choose Highland 35. I am sure nobody feel sorry. Very very very pretty boat. Cockpit is really large(2x4 m. approx). Flybridge is also big. Saloon and galley are very usefull with motor control deck and joystick. Aftcabins was pretty small but doesnt disturb. Bathroom is enough to take shower.Only thing that I dont like is very short and small foredeck:(. Forward cabin can be used as store or closet.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    After this cat detour, let me continue where I had left:

    “I don’t know about beauty, the Malo is really difficult to beat, but in another sort of register I find the Luffe 43ds and the Cigale 14 beautiful boats, and both are faster and (even) more enjoyable to sail than the Malo 40.”

    The Luffe 43ds is a narrow boat, a boat with a Nordic root, the Cigale is a completely different boat, a boat that has its roots in the Open oceanic races. The design of this boat is not new. The first design is from 1988 and the design has been refined and bettered. First design had a beam of 3.2m (1988), the actual design has 4.2m (1997).

    The Cigale has another name: Levrier, and the only difference is the interior set-up.

    The boat was designed by Jean Marie Finot as his own boat, and Finot is not only a fine and experienced sailor, but a great designer. What better recommendation can a boat have?

    Finot says about it:

    “At the beginning, this boat has been designed for the architects themselves. The result can seem surprising, but it comes from absence of prejudice and anticipation on the modern techniques and their optimal exploitation.
    Security, strength, easy handling, speed and charm of life in board, are the main characteristics that have guided us.”

    “This boat is the synthesis of our navigation experiences and results of what we have learned with 25 000 cruising and racing boats, built by our designs.”


    The Cigale can have 14, 16 or 18m and is built in Aluminium by Alubat, the builder of the well known OVNI line.

    The Cigale 14 is at the upper limit of the budget, has a LOA of 14m displaces 8000kg has a ballast of 3.3T and carries more 2X600L water ballast and carries 106m2 of sail. It has a 2.2m draft , a beam of 4.2m and the tanks can hold 500L water and 300L fuel. The engine is a 50hp Yanmar.

    This is a very fast boat with a hull that can offer a better protection against submerged debris than any fiberglass boat. As negative aspects, it offers no pilot-house and 2.2 draft is more than I would like.

    The Groupe Finot proposed a version with a movable keel (1.3/2.3). I have e-mailed Jean Marie and he was kind enough to reply saying that the boat had been consigned to Alubat and that they had chosen not to make that version.

    I have talked personally with the guys from Alubat and no dice. They will not make a Gigale with a movable keel. They say that if I wanted a boat with a movable keel, I would have to chose an OVNI:( .

    http://www.alubat.com/english/boats/cigale14.htm

    This boat has another advantage. The water ballast permits it to sail fast with very small heel. 11º is quite amazing for one that is used to cruise in between 20 and 30º. In this aspect it is a lot better than the Luffe.

    The Speed Polar is very good and this comparison between the carrying sail capacity at 11º of heel, using or not the water ballast, is quite enlightening. After having had a good look at it I have decided I want a boat with water ballast:) .
     

    Attached Files:

  5. wblakewsx
    Joined: Nov 2006
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Miami

    wblakewsx New Member

    hows about a trans-atlantic passage for comparioson.
     
  6. catmando2
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 167
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 38
    Location: Australia

    catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

    OK wblakewsx, what's your comparison ??

    Have a Happy Holiday all,

    Dave
     
  7. SV Papillon
    Joined: Dec 2006
    Posts: 6
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: lake union

    SV Papillon Junior Member

    cruising costs

    A little late as the thread seems to have moved off a little.

    My humble 2 cents are that cruising costs regardless of boat are directly proportionate to the standard of living of the owner. While the amount of money you spend to upkeep your boat each year can be substantial, the amount of time you spend in marinas, during peak season, how often you leave the boat fly off some where, weather you go out to eat every where you go, rent a car etc.. have a much larger influence in your budget. The amenities on your boat also play into things, washer dryer, ice machine and others can run up costs. For example on the west coast of mexico during peak season you can spend over $1.00 us per ft. per day to stay in a marina verse sitting in the anchorage for free.

    In reg to the boats from sweden I spent a brief period post dot com boom commissioning Malo's HR's and swedens in seattle. As I am far from a expert and can only go off what I saw, I thought the HR's were put together better than the other two but the swedens seemed to be the performer of the three. One owner took his boat out for sea trials in a 45 knot blow?!?

    Happy holidays

    Feliz natal

    Jake
     
  8. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Thanks jake. Yes, the Swedens are the best performers and are also very beautiful boats. They are faster than the Malos and if I could chose I would have the 42 instead of the Malo 40. The 42 is probably the most beautiful boat I have ever seen (interior and exterior).

    I did not post about them because they are well out of the 350 000 euro budget: It costs something over 500 000 euros.

    I have not yet seen the new Sweden 40 but, by the drawings, it looks “smaller” than the other Swedish 40’s and with a good reason: This one is more of a cruiser-racer, so you need a bigger boat to offer the same amenities of smaller but dedicated cruisers. Fact is that the new 40 only carries 300L water and 200L fuel and that is about the same that my 36ft can carry. For having the same tankage of the other 40 Swedish boats, and the same comfort, it would have to be the 42.

    About quality, in the last 5 or 6 years I think things have changed a bit. Halberg- Rassys are not so well put together as they used to be. They have been doing an effort to bring prices down, and even if they still have a very fine quality, perhaps the Najads are now some points above. I don’t think HRs are now better than Malos, in what regards quality. The quality that has impressed me more, was the one from Sweden yacht (42)…but at that price it’s better they can show some impeccable handwork.

    http://www.swedenyachts.se/
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Hello there,

    I have been busy these past months and I have left this thread unattended. I think that the number of visitors deserved more attention from my part. But anyway this thread needs a redefinition.

    After a first part where we have tried to look at the costs of cruising sailboat versus Motorboat, to conclude that, in what regards low budget cruising, sailboats are less expensive not because they are less expensive to maintain but because their initial price is lower (new market boats) and that substantial difference in price is never recovered by the use or maintenance costs.

    After that and because the more expensive motorboats offer a quality of life that budget sailboats cannot match, we have taken a look at more expensive sailboats, boats that offer a comparable quality with the one offered by motorboats.

    I have set a limit of 350 000 euros (about the limit I have set for myself) and went looking for motorboats and sailboats that I could have pleasure in owning and were adequate for cruising.

    Regarding motorboats I don’t want boats that waste a lot of fuel, but I also want a boat that can occasionally cruise at speeds around 20k (what’s the advantage of a motorboat if it cannot go faster than a sailboat?;) ).
    Regarding sailboats I want a boat with a minimum cruising speed of 7.5k (while motoring) and a boat that can sail fast, a boat that, given the appropriate conditions, can easily and safely sail over 10k and a boat that would be a lot of fun to sail (if you don’t take pleasure in sailing, better have motorboats:p ).

    Regarding motorboats, even with 350 000 euros the choice was very limited. Normally motorboats with an adequate interior for extensive cruising cost more than that and of course, for this price we only get coastal boats. I am ashamed to say that the best choice I could find (after a lot of searching) was my wife’s preferred boat, the Menorquin 120 (post 341 ). Perhaps it is not so strange, because we cruise a lot in the Med and stay out of the Marinas most of the time, and around the Balearic islands the motorboat that we find among cruisers that stay for the night in the many shelters of the region are mostly Menorquins (among a vast majority of sailboats).

    Regarding sailboats the choice is a lot bigger in what regards quality and amenities for the cruising sailor, but for that price it is hard to find fast sailing boats. For this price you can get very good quality 44 fast cruiser- racers (my preferred one is the X-43) or dedicated 40 ft cruisers like the Malo, or the Halberg-Rassy. But in what regards really fast dedicated cruisers the choice is also limited. They exist in the market, but they are normally bigger and more expensive.
    Inside the budget I will retain two boats, the Luffe 43ds (post 365) and the Cigale 14 (post 395). Both are fast boats, the Cigale with the advantage of being an aluminium boat and the Luffe with the advantage of being not only a deck-saloon, but of being also a semi-custom boat that can be adapted to your needs. It is also a boat made with care and love by dedicated men in a small production boatyard using state of the art technologies and materials.
    It was the time to have a talk with my wife regarding the choice of our future boat:

    Motorboat or Sailboat?

    The boat is not for now; I still have some years till I can retire. For what I cruise now (45 cruising days in a year) my boat is OK. This boat is for the retirement days, a boat for cruising 120/150 days in a year) and we want to get it right.

    My wife is not a sailing fan:( , meaning by that the she doesn’t sail, she just goes along and if she likes to be some hours at the sea, the 16 or 24 hours non stop are too much for her. If a motorboat permits us to arrive faster to the nice places, she will want one. The question is: can we afford it? Well she proved to me that we can afford the initial cost of the Menorquin, but can we afford the fuel costs that our cruising style involve, taking into account that we like to travel?

    We have made some calculations considering our average mileage for the 45 days and multiplying it by 2. That will give a little bit more of 4000 M/year. If we consider a consumption of 45L/h for a speed of 16K (no sense in traveling slower on a motorboat) that will give 11 250 euros of fuel/year. A sailboat, according to our experience will waste not more than 1500 euros of fuel/year and, if needed, it can waste only a fraction of that. That makes a difference of about 10 000 euros/year and that means a difference of about 80 euros for cruising day which is huge for us (that is the price of a day at the marina plus a nice meal at the restaurant).

    Of course to balance things we would have to consider the superior cost of maintenance of two engines versus the maintenance of the rig and sails, and there the balance would probably be in favor of the motor boat, but the sails replacement would cost no more than 10 000 euros and with some maintenance they are good for six or seven years, so, it is not really a match, if you are going to travel for years with this kind of mileage.

    Of course, the 10 000 /year, or the 100 000 euros for 10 years still represent a fraction of the initial price of the boat and in that sense we could say it is meaningful, but we, and I suspect a lot of cruisers, usually save during all life to have a good boat but that doesn’t mean that we are rich. Once they have the boat they have to live with their retirement income, and if, like us, they take an anticipated retirement, that income will be smaller than their actual income. That means that we will have money for the dream boat, but then we are going to live on a small budget (but on a very nice boat). And of course, with fuel you never know, I mean you know that the price will always increase, but how much? The price can double really quickly.

    So, it will be a sailboat….for now, because I had to promise my wife that when we are old and do not have the wish to travel so far away and for so long, we will have a motorboat, a Menorquin:cool: .

    That does not mean that a sailboat of equivalent price is more expensive to own and tooperate. It only means that if you travel a lot, it will be. If we had a motorboat in a Marina in the Balearic Islands (as a lot of people do) and went there to spend a long summer, cruising around the Islands, I believe that for similar priced boats, the motorboat would probably be slightly less expensive to own and operate. But in this case the difference would be so small that the choice would always be for other reasons, not for cost.

    For now on, on this thread I will post sail boats that for a reason or another I consider fit for my retirement days and make me dream, sometimes a little bit out of budget.

    Each case is a case and I invite cruisers that have dreams about their cruising boats (motor or sail) to share those dreams and those boats with us, as many have done along this thread. After all what makes the world interesting is the difference. Boating and Cruising is not about being right or wrong, but about pleasure, dreaming and living the sea, and for each one of us, there is a right boat, and it would be very boring if they were all the same.

    An interest for cruising and cruising boats, is what we all share and that’s the subject of this thread, cruising sailboats and motorboats, if you dream about one, share it with us.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. yacht371
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 64
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 32
    Location: North Vancouver BC Canada

    yacht371 Yacht Designer

    Hi Vega,

    The conclusions you reached about sail versus power are most interesting. I'm a lifelong sailor, and until last year had never owned a power boat, although I have designed many, and been out for sea trials on even more. In 2006 the MC29 Motorcat came into production, I purchased one. As the designer I got dealer price, but also got the first diesel production boat, so it was a mixed blessing as it meant some time spent sorting out the inevitable teething problems of an early hull.

    What appealed to me as a sailor was the excellent fuel economy of the Motocat along with an easy 18 knot crusing speed at just 20 liters per hour. One of our favorite cruising areas is Desolation Sound, about 100 nautical miles from our home marina. In the sailboat we normally take 3 days to get there, cruising about 5 to 7 hours a day. With the speed of the motorcat, we planned to so the trip in a single day. This would allow a short one week holidy to be taken in our favorite cruising area. In August last year we had the boat sorted and took of for our holiday. Two things happened to make us rethink power boating. The first was the weather. Although Desolation is a sheltered area with generally light winds, we have to traverse a 17 mile stretch of exposed and often rough coastline.

    This year, gales of 25 to 35 knots blew from the Northwest (the direction we wanted to go) all the week of our holiday. We made 2 attempts to head into it, but both times we turned back. Alone I could have handled it and the boat took the waves as well as you could expect for a small light boat, but I want to stay married <grin>. Still our monohul sailboat, a Hanse 371, could have bashed its way into it under power or sail, in greater comfort mainly beacuse of its much heavier weight.

    We turned tail and sought sheltered waters (the Indian Arm) near home. Although we enjoyed the holiday, I didn't much enjoy the travelling. I found it boring. There really isn't much to do, you just hang onto the wheel and stare straight ahead watching for debris and other boats, and checking the course on the chartplotter. Check the instruments? Yep, still 3000 rpm, no alarms. Strangely it is boring and stressful at the same time. On the Hanse we are on autopilot most of the time, but I didn't have one on the MC29 and would not use it at 18 knots for safety reasons.

    I always thought the power boaters were the fellows with short attention spans, but I found out its is me! I need more to do, plus at the lower speed of the sailboat I can look around at the scenery.

    The Hanse has a roomier interior with greater comfort, but lacks the visibility and dry steering position of the motor boat, although our hard dodger does 90% of the job of a wheelhouse. The Hanse cost about 30% more but it is 37feet versus 29 feet and almost 12 feet of beam against 8.5 feet so naturally there is more room. Not quite a fair comparison, but still as Vega concludes a sailboat offers better value. I would add that it is the more responsible "green" choice in the ear of global warming.

    Anyway, I sold the MC29, and retreived the Hanse from the Charter fleet where I had placed it. I'm overjoyed to have it back! Yesterday we sailed it across the Strait of Georgia in 25 knots of wind and heavy rain, autopilot steering and sitting under the dodger with its back curtain on, warm and dry with the furnace wafting heat up through the companionway. A grand sail at 7-8 knots under jib and reefed main. My crew, a gentleman of 80, has just returned from a 2 year cruise of the Pacific as far as New Zealand and back, some of it single handed, on his own 35 foot boat. He serves as inspiration that we need not give up sailing due to age.

    The only hard task on my boat when alone is raising the rather large main. I didn't order the available electric halyard winch, but wish I had. However I'm going to use a device called the Cranker(tm) to make that task easier. Google it.

    On a new boat I would consider an in mast furling main. We had one on an earlier boat we owned in Florida, a Pearson 424, and it worked great and I didn't notice any lack of sailing ability. It certainly made getting underway and beddig down easier by eliminating the sail cover.

    Anyway, my reason for prefering sail is not economics, nor romance, just that I find there is more to do on a sailboat, and I go boating for something (fun and interesting) to do! As transportation all boats are slow compared to cars, trains, and airplanes!
     
  11. Portager
    Joined: May 2002
    Posts: 418
    Likes: 13, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 325
    Location: Southern California

    Portager Senior Member

    Sorry to reply to such on old thread, but I was trying to catch up and ...

    I've been slogging my way through this thread and I was determined to read from beginning to end before commenting, but I couldn't help but contradict this misconception. You apparently assumed that the cost of rigging and sails will only increase at the inflation rate whereas the cost of fuel would increase much faster. The latter assumption is understandable given recent history of energy cost, however the first assumption is erroneous and in the long term the second assumption is invalid.

    First: lets discuss the future cost of sails and rigging. Sails today are predominantly manufactured from fibers produced from petroleum. For example "Polyester: The most common fibre used for both woven sailcloth and laminates. Its properties include good UV and flex resistance, as well as being inexpensive." http://www.go-sail.co.uk/sailmats.asp . As the cost of fuel goes up so to will the cost of sail materials and the transportation of the materials to market. Rigging is primarily made of stainless steel, which has relatively high embodied energy content of 50.4 MJ/kg http://www.vuw.ac.nz/cbpr/documents/pdfs/ee-finalreport-vol2.pdf . Obviously, the cost of sails and rigging is closely tied to the cost of petroleum and therefore, I expect that sails and rigging will increase in cost nearly as fast as the cost of fuel.

    Second: the future cost of fuel. In the short term the cost of fuel is very sensitive to the laws of supply and demand (and petroleum refiners have artificially restricted supply to increase the price), however in the long term if the price stays above the break-even point of alternative fuels then alternative fuels will become available. Here in the US the break-even point is around $2.5 and $3 per gallon for biodiesel (see the figure 5 on page 7 http://www.agmanager.info/agribus/energy/Biodiesel Is it Worth Considering.pdf ). Therefore, if diesel fuel costs continue to increase as you have indicated then we will all be converting our boats to burn the lower cost, cleaner burning biodiesel.

    As Will pointed out, predictions of future costs are very difficult and therefore the best comparison is probably to use current costs.

    So can biodiesel also be used to make Polyester for sails. Yes, see http://www.jobwerx.com/news/basf_biodiesel_biz-id=948467_857.html .
     
  12. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Thanks for that post. A most enjoyable reading and a valuable experience to enlarge the information pool on this thread.

    About the Cranker ( http://www.winchbuddy.com/) a similar device was used once in my boat (in a shipyard) to haul a guy up to the top of the mast, but it is big and heavy.
    I believe you have a better solution, one that I am contemplating and that I have not implemented yet because I am thinking of exchanging my boat. I mean, instead of having more power on the winch, have a fraction of the friction on the mast. You will need a lot less power to lift the sail and it will be a lot easier to reef the sail when you have the wind from behind (that’s my major concern).

    For some years new systems have been in the market, but they needed a rail and were very expensive. Now they have the same systems for running inside most mast slots. It is less expensive and you don’t have to add a rail (no installation costs).

    Take a look at Ronstan Ballslide Batten Systems (end of the page).

    http://www.ronstan.com/marine/SAbattensystems.asp

    The one they show is for a batten, but if you look at the small image with the sail, you will se a smaller one that substitutes the sliders.
     
  13. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    You are welcome.

    I have to agree about the price increase of sails and masts above the inflation, by the reasons you have specified, but you have also said:

    “I expect that sails and rigging will increase in cost nearly as fast as the cost of fuel”.

    The problem would be to find out what means: nearly. I believe that will only be a fraction of the total increase in fuel. We have had that experience already, in the last 15 years the price of Diesel fuel has increased (Europe) around 80% and that was not, fortunately, the increase in sails or masts.

    About the Biodiesel, it is not that easy. Here we pay already Diesel Fuel at more than $3 per gallon, but off course, most of it is taxes.
    If everybody started to use Biodiesel you would have a huge environmental problem (related with extensive mono agriculture in an absurd scale) and the costs to overcome that issue would also be huge, and that would reflect in the price of Biodiesel, as taxes.

    I agree that current price is what should be used for comparison, but I believe that the cost of fuel is still on a sharp rise for some decades but also that modern and more efficient technologies are on the verge of substituting the actual cruising boat engines (diesel-electric and others), engines that will waste 50% less than the ones we have.
     
  14. Portager
    Joined: May 2002
    Posts: 418
    Likes: 13, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 325
    Location: Southern California

    Portager Senior Member

    You pay taxes on diesel for off road use? In the US marine diesel is except from the "road use" tax (~$.18/gallon) so marine fuel is only subject to ~$0.12/gallon or $0.03/liter which is primarily due to local sales tax and $0.01/gallon contribution to the Coastal Protection Fund. As you can see in the US the cost of fuel is a very small percentage of what we pay at the pump. You are correct, the break-even point must be based on the pre-tax cost.

    I think you may be overstating the consequences of biodiesel production. According to http://www.ebb-eu.org/biodiesel.php
    "Biodiesel production also plays a useful role in agriculture. Under the current Common Agricultural Policy, the arable raw materials needed for biodiesel production may be grown on set-aside land, land which would otherwise be taken out of production.

    Biodiesel production uses today around 3 million hectares of arable land in the EU.

    Biodiesel has been produced on an industrial scale in the European Union since 1992, largely in response to positive signals from the EU institutions. Today, there are approximately 120 plants in the EU producing up to 6,100,000 tonnes of biodiesel annually. These plants are mainly located in Germany, Italy, Austria, France and Sweden."

    Many people think modern engines are wasteful, which I think is due to the energy conversion efficiency being quoted as 36% to 38% for petrol engines and 38% to 40% for diesel engines, however one needs to understand that an engine is ultimately limited to the theoretical thermodynamic efficiency of the thermal cycle which is ~39% for petrol engines and ~41% for diesel engines (if I recall the numbers correctly from my Thermodynamics Classes ~29 years ago) operating at standard conditions. As you can see, engines operating at their optimum speed and loading are approaching their theoretical efficiency limit so there is no significant gain available there. Where the improvement can be achieved is for engines operating at sub-optimal speed and/or loading.

    Diesel-electric excels where you have very high start-up torque, such as railroad locomotives or commercial tugboats. These conditions are not prevalent on pleasure boats. Diesel electric may make sense on a sailboat if the electric motor can double as a generator to recharge the batteries when the sails have excess power.

    For power boats, I believe the main opertunity for efficiency improvements is at the propeller. As you pointed out, many power boats have 2 to 3 times the power required for efficient cruising to maintain headway in worst-case conditions or to provide a sprint speed. If the propeller is optimized for the maximum power conditions then it will be operating far from optimal at cruising speed and the engine will be under-loaded, which degrades break specific fuel consumption and engine life. Controllable Pitch Propellers (CPP) provide the ability to adjust the blade pitch and keep the engine operating closer to its optimum on the speed-torque curve.
     

  15. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Yes, Diesel for pleasure boats costs the same as diesel for cars, everywhere in the EC, except Great-Britain, but they are going to start to pay the same as everybody (and I will bet that in some years the same will happen in US).

    I hope you are right about Biodiesel and ecology, but remember that now we are using a negligible percentage of biodiesel, considering the total amount of fuel.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.