cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. fcfc
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    fcfc Senior Member

    As for me, retirement will be at least in 25-30 years, if nothing change since then.

    So for cruising time, I am limited to 2 weeks + some week ends.

    Real budget would be 1/7 to 1/6 of vega. And I would greatly prefer a "liquid" boat: easy to sell fast without too big loss if anything happens in life. Or at least to be stored at no costs. Future is so unforseeable I do not want to be stuck with something that should be only a leisure, not a pain.

    To cruise with wife and daugther, minimum is separate sleeping area + separate head/shower with hot water and standing headroom. Of course, more comfort welcome.


    And then the location. I would like to cruire NOT where I live (near Channel). I would NOT like to spend all my holidays to go to the vacation place. But I would like to have the boat very near where I live in winter for maintenance, repair, and even some weekend use.


    So, with my constraints, I rent boats, not own one.

    The only boats I could own are trailerable powerboats. I think things are changing in this domain due to car fashion changes. SUV may not be politically correct, but that kind of cars may now go in town, go on higway , bring your wife to restaurant AND tow up to 3 tons. All for the price (or even lower) of a sedan car I have, but limited to tow 1500 kg.

    So boats similar to logan 33, whio, andreyale 10, commuter 36 may now be considered as trailerable boats. That need to be under 2300 - 2500 kg (need to deduct trailer weight and allow some gear inside) and beam under 2.5 m (8'2") (8'6" is US trailerable, not Europe).

    www.parker-marine.com has interesting designs for me BUT:
    the commuter 36 , beam 8'8" (2.64 m) and weigth 6000 lbs (2700 kg) is NOT trailerable for a very little.
    The commuter 27, beam 7'10' (2.38) and weigth 4000 lbs (1800 kg), is trailerable, but on the small side.

    At this level, 10 cm (4" ) more beam and 500 more kg (1000 lbs) DO count for more comfort.
    I do not imagine my family speeding a week long in the commuter 27, even in fine weather.

    And then building process. They are homebuilt boats. I have little time to cruise, even less to build a boat. And the resale value. First there is a de facto prohibit to sell homebuilt before 5 years after registration. (Law is you can sell them before, but you will have to pay a full CE certification by an official body). And then most homebuilt sell for barely above the costs of materials : you have worked for nearly free. I have better paid job.

    One off will be above my budget, and then does not either garantee some resale value.

    So the only remaining possibility is second hand from mass produced series. My father has owned, (and still own one) , 4 boats this kind of buy. Should buy 3 - 5 years old, and sell 8 - 10 years old. You do not exactly choose what you want (only mainstream boats). You do not choose options and it is not new, but this is a very cost effective way provided you have some time, tooling and knowledge for doing yourself most maintenance. But that's very far from rebuilding a boat.


    So, I just wait for something looking to a commuter 30 - 31 being mass produced in Europe and available in used market. (I understand Vega very well when he speaks of mass production, market size and resale value). Meanwhile, I rent. Sailboats. For which I must forecast weather and holidays 6 month before, And I need to share with my brother family to be at least two crew fully able to handle the boat. Also allow more time in a bigger boat since costs are also shared. (we rent 34-35 ft odissey or oceanis for 4 adults + two kids).
     
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  2. Wellydeckhand

    Wellydeckhand Previous Member

    To think a bigger boat will cost more but anything below 100 ft is still sane..... you should see all those Mega yacht burn fuel.......

    To have a slightly bigger motorsailer would be advantage for storm in deep sea, carrying capacity, comfort and extra passanger allowance, repair equipment.

    To sail the bugger for day ends on sail in big sea guided by GPS and use the engine when you need the juice and pinpoint drive to a specific location with less hassel of controling the cloth.....

    I may be wrong........ but I think that is a compromised way to go......

    WDH
     
  3. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    fcfc, very interesting post. I think that this should be the direction of this thread, I mean diversity. There are a lot of cruising possibilities and therefore, cruising boats and they are dependent on many factors: one, probably the most important, is available time;
    Another important is "available" money.

    Cruisers are concerned with money, cruising costs, initial price of boat and consumption but the ideal type of boat will be very different, depending on a number of personal factors.

    Only to give an example fcfc says: “One off will be above my budget, and then does not either guarantee some resale value. So the only remaining possibility is second hand from mass produced series. …Should buy 3 - 5 years old, and sell 8 - 10 years old. “ and I agree that this should be the most economical way, regarding initial price, if you don’t have a lot of time to do maintenance or even rebuilding.

    But I think that this way of thinking has to do with the fact that fcfc has only 15 days to enjoy the boat, his retirement days are still far away and this boat will not be his dream boat, nor his final one.

    For me, it is my dream boat, my final boat and the one where I want to enjoy live, therefore it is a completely different situation.

    I think that the richness of this thread will depend on the diversity of different situations and requirements that we will explore here, regarding costs.

    Fcfc, it would be interesting to compare the cost of charter option (not only the one with a sailboat, but also the ones with a chartered motorboat) with the costs of the options of owning a trailerable motorboat.

    If I were in your situation I would probably look at other possibility: Having the boat out of water in Mallorca and having it in the water only when I want to sail.

    That seems a strange solution regarding costs, but having the boat out of water doesn’t cost much. The travel lift costs for a small boat 3 or 4 times a year are not relevant, you could have a far bigger choice in the type of boat, you would save a lot of money not buying a SUV, not to mention the trailer and you would be in one of the most beautiful Med cruising grounds, I mean, the Balearic Islands.

    The money you will save in the SUV (initial price and worst fuel consumption), and in the voyage with the trailer, to the cruising grounds will permit you many air flights to Mallorca, for you and your family. Air flights to Mallorca are very inexpensive (40 euros at low season). The reason has to do with the Air Berlin, take a look at their site.


    Another issue, Fcfc, you have said that a Range 40 costs about 240 000 euros. That is a very good price and I have tried (several times) to contact them to have some more details about the boat and price options, but I got no answer. Have they gone bankrupt:?:
     
  4. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    Regarding costs I think you are wrong. All costs rise sharply with the size of the boat.
     
  5. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    I think Fred is right regarding the size of the boat.

    Ari, make some calculations for us. Initial cost and size of a Junk, crew, maintenance costs, engine size and consumption in a circumnavigation, etc.

    Only that way, and comparing costs with a more traditional alternative you can see if it is less expensive or not.

    Certainly you don't want to travel in a rag tag Junk, and if you want a nice one, then you get a lot of maintenance.

    Traditional Junks have little maintenance because they are used to work and their owners don't care to their appearance. Their condition is not always the best and it doesn't have to be, because they are used as coastal boats, but if you want to cross oceans in one, it will have to be in fine condition, and that means new, or doing a rebuild in an old one, and that will be expensive.

    And if you can build a junk for not so much money, certainly you can build another smaller wooden vessel for a lot less.
     
  6. fcfc
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    fcfc Senior Member

    Powerboats costs are way above sailboats in renting. Not even including fuel. An Antares 980 is a little more than twice an Oceanis 351. According to rent companies, insurances and lack of marine knowledge of powerboat customers being the biggest problem.

    For owning vs renting, there are also much other issues than direct cost. Not being able to postpone holidays for a few days for bussiness reasons has an indirect cost difficult to evaluate. The opposite way is postponning holidays a few to get rid of that cloudy weather.

    And I do not mind that ugly red line on the hull, when a blue one would be much prettier, or mattress quality.

    There are also there psychological issues.
    If a SUV is needed to trail a boat, the SUV will replace a car (my wife or mine), and will be counted for car budget, not boating budget. And I think today SUV will only be marginally more expensive than a sedan car.
    The trailer is part of boating budget.

    Now, for remote owning a boat, I think it is very expensive. First, experience in professional travel show me that low fare are always when you cannot use them. And airplane fare are only part of the travel.

    Also remote owning means that you do nothing by yourself. Even cleaning the cabin inside and fixing that locker handle. Unless you bring your sponge and toolbox by plane to Mallorca (or buy locally) and use holiday time to do it, all must be subcontracted and trusted correctly done. A trailerable boat would be in your garden for winter, next to the garage / workshop door. Or in the nearby marina in not too bad months (may june, sept), easily accessible for week end boating afternoons beyond holiday season.

    Remote owning also means always going to Mallorca, because it is where the boat is ,and finally not sail much more than a rented boat.

    The quote was 275 000 euros, from a ten line boat test in a french boating magazine about one year ago. Their web site is still active, but their last event is december 2004. I do not know more about this builder.
     
  7. Ari
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Ari Patience s/o Genius

    Junk/Phinisi cost per annum.

    70 -100 Footer wooden boat made in Indonesia+Indonesian crew
    Boat hull(complete and ready for sailing)- $Malaysia(RM) 250K = USD70K

    Estimated operating cost per annum.

    Sail maintenances - RM2K = USD 0.5K (RM10K divide by 5 yrs )
    Riggings maint - RM2K = USD 0.5K (RM10K divide by 5 yrs)
    Fuel for generators/engine - RM36K = USD10K (3kw genset+200hp main)
    Crew salaries(5) - RM60K = USD 17K (RM1K X 5 X 12 month)
    Food supply - RM20K = USD5.5K (RM5.0 x 10PAX x 365days)
    Careening + antifouling - RM10K = USD 2.8K (perform by crew)
    Engine maintenances - RM2K = USD 0.6K (luboil/filters)
    Electrical maint - RM2K = USD 0.6K (lighting/climate control)
    Painting/varnishing - RM2K = USD 0.6K (by crew)
    Total RM 136K= USD38K

    sail/rigging/ maint/ careen RM16K=USD 4.4K are all in cost of material and labour perform by the crews.
    Top of the line electronics, audio visual, galley equiment,sea sport toys, sauna,dive shop are not included, every equipment are basic and medium class.Eletrical and Hydraulic system onboard.
    This is what expected from me by my boat captain.

    For circumnavigation project the crew and master part will be handle by my own family of 5 + 3 crew. We expect to consumed 10-15 metric ton of diesel for that purpose.Can only be confirm when the boat are completed and tested.Since my income is in Ringgit Malaysia..it will be very tough when paying for marina in Euro or USD.This boat will ply Asian waters until the time comes for circumnavigation on the first quater of the third year of sailing.Have a look at my photo gallery to know the kind of junk I'am talking about.Wood is cheap at our place..anything that involve wood, sweat/grease elbow and local expertise is cheap.Good and special metal/alloy is expensive.
     
  8. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    That is an interesting project.

    Utilizing your data, we can see that operating costs for circumnavigating (assuming three years) are of USD 114 000. Almost the double of the boat cost.

    Assuming that you are going to make 40 000 miles on that circumnavigation and that your boat is capable of doing 1mile/gallon, considering the calculations I have made for the motorsailor, regarding sailing and motoring, you should waste about 27 metric tons of diesel. What is the real consumption of your engine?

    You are going to put some 30 000 hours on that engine. Unless the engine is very good and a new one, you are going to spend a lot more in maintenance than only oil and filters.

    Unless you really want to travel with a crew, I still think, that given the low cost of building wooden boats in your country, you could build a smaller and nicer, faster sailboat, sail a lot more, do the circumnavigation with less money and end up with a boat that would be more valuable than the junk, not to mention all the marinas and towns you would not visit, giving the price for port and marina taxes that a big boat demands.

    I was thinking in a boat like this, god for 5, 6 people, but that can be handled by one.

    But of course, it is your dream, and I wish you good luck.;)

    http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/115cutter.html
     

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  9. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    All true, or almost, but not the airplane tickets to Mallorca. Airberlin has made their exchanging point in Mallorca, I mean all international AirBerlin flights go to Mallorca and then people change plane to go to the German city they want. This makes flights to Mallorca inexpensive. Even in August, providing you do a reservation with plenty of time, or wait till a few days before the flight, the price with all taxes is 132euros or 100euros for a child.

    I don't think that it would make such a difference regarding total price or the time you are going to use the boat, since that for using it you have to put the boat in the water and that takes time...not to speak of the price of French Marinas or the long waiting lists to get a place.:rolleyes:

    The boat you want, narrow and long, is very rare on the used market, and they are all expensive boats. They are also less seaworthy than beamier boats of the same size. If you could opt for mass production boats you would not only get a lot more choice, but prices that can go with your budget of about 70 000 euros (actually 10 meters, 10 year old mass production motorboats like the Antares, Rodman or Faeton cost more than that, around 90 000 or 100 000 euros)

    I am not trying to convince you, but probably next year I am going to leave my boat on the Balearic Islands because I want to sail further, to Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily and Italy and I have no time to cruise there and return home. I'll tell you later about the prices:)

    About boats suitable to you trailerable project, at that price, I can not find anything…but I wish you good luck (if you can not find anything, you can always buy for that price a new trailerable and seaworthy sailboat:D ).
     
  10. Wellydeckhand

    Wellydeckhand Previous Member

    Ari,

    The more destination plotted and stopover will be extra cost..... with a larger vessel we can sail better distance with fuel and supplies carry even with the room space and comfort.....

    Bigger vessel mean we can cruise near to colder rim area and avoid dangerous tip of countries that present chances of pirate..... waiting ( No Naming of Country to be fair)....... I presume pirate hunt in warmer climate and at narrow passage and unavoidable by-pass.

    I can circumnavigate a longer leg journey and land on safer and beautiful ground..... choose careful stopover that is a bargain..... to refuel and restock...... even enjoy the sunshine.( My version)

    Circumnavigate easy without a race to catch and do research before hand would cut your cost a huge lump.

    Cheer.


    Wellydeckhand

    P.S. That's my 2 cent
     
  11. Ari
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Ari Patience s/o Genius

    A sound advise.

    Of course it is my dream..but the reason I'am here at this site is to looks for tips and advises from people who have the experiences and willing to share it with the others.I do really appreciate your view...we yet to build that dream boat..I would like to install a brand new marine diesel engine, Yanmar,Cummins,Caterpilar will do, but somebody mention about Kubota in one of the tread.Anybody have experience with Kubota ? The only Kubota I know is a small tractor for ploughing the padi field(rice field)and Slide Valve for FCC catalyst flow control..none related to the marine engine.
     
  12. Ari
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Ari Patience s/o Genius

    Space and comfort and privacy is top priority to me..to have two wife is hard enough..to have both on board a 40 footer is suicide ..!
     
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  13. Wellydeckhand

    Wellydeckhand Previous Member

    Try go to Semarang Indonesia and check new showroom and factory for IMO Mitshubishi...... 100 ft best option.:)
     
  14. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Yes of course Welly, but cruising is mostly the stopovers, lots of them. That's why doing that in a big boat is not only more expensive but it also limits the places you can visit, unless you are very rich and even so, many places simply don't have places for boats over 50ft.

    Cruising is visiting nice places at leisure pace, not going around the world oceans with three or four ports of call. That is a circumnavigation, but that is not cruising.
     

  15. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Vega Senior Member

    Yes, you know a lot better than me about that. Some westerners do have two women, but they certainly don’t live together :p


    Thanks. I think that the way to go is like this:

    First, judge your requirements in space and go for the smaller boat that can satisfy them.

    Second, chose the best sailing boat you can (I mean a fast sailing one, a boat that can really sail, even with small winds), but also a boat that can be self-sufficient while motoring, in all situations.

    Three, chose a seaworthy boat, simple and easy to repair and a rig that can be handled by one person.

    I believe that this is a sound advice and that most cruisers will tell you the same.
     
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