cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Vega, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. Milan
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 317
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 279
    Location: The Netherlands

    Milan Senior Member

    Interesting, Meta built aluminum boat. A bit bigger then what we are talking about, but same principle. Crossed the Nothern Atlantic both ways in 1984 at an average speed of 7 knots.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Milan
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 317
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 279
    Location: The Netherlands

    Milan Senior Member

    We have more or less similar / same discussions on more threads. Just read "Containerable Motorsailers", on motorsailers. That Robert Perry's motorsailer would be a perfect candidate for economical motor cruiser.
    http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11797
     
  3. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Yes and it is a very nice boat, but the price they indicate is without interior furniture, isolation, water tanks, electrical and electronic systems etc.

    In a boat with a good interior and good overall systems the price of a hull is 1/4 to 1/5 of the total price of the boat. This will give a price between 254 000 euros and 318 000 euros. Painting an aluminum hull is a very expensive thing. You can count with 15 000 euros more.

    The rig, the sails and all the stuff necessary to sail for a 36ft will cost around 35 000 euros.

    So I guess that the final price of that boat, without a rig would be between 239 000 euros and 298 000 Euros. And you still have to add 5000 euros to upgrade that engine to a 55hp, because a motorboat needs a bigger engine than a sailboat.

    We are talking here of a 36ft. A 40ft would cost about 30% more, and that even considering only the lower price will give 385 000 euros, and that is a good price for a 40ft aluminium boat.

    That is about 2x the price of the Oceanis 39.

    Ps. I have a budget cruising boat, and I hope to get a better cruising boat for my retirement days. The boat that I want is not like the Oceanis, but an aluminum boat not very different from the one we are talking about and I intend to have it built in Holland. So I know something about prices of aluminium boats.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    No, this thread is only about comparing cost regarding budget cruising in sailboats and motorboats.

    About the Perry's sailboat I don't understand why do you say that.
    You don't know the price of that boat (I guess).
    And that boat without the sails and the keel would have very little stability (because that narrow and round hull has very little form stability) and would roll in a very inconfortable way. It would only be fit to be used in sheltered waters.
     
  5. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Those are very expensive boats, I mean the motorboats buit by Meta.
     
  6. Milan
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 317
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 279
    Location: The Netherlands

    Milan Senior Member

    Hi Paulo, I see that I'm not the only one awake late at night. :)
    "…Painting an aluminum hull is a very expensive thing. You can count with 15 000 euros more..."
    Yes, but it doesn't have to be painted, aside from under water.

    "…have to add 5000 euros to upgrade that engine to a 55hp, because a motorboat needs a bigger engine than a sailboat…"

    For such an light and easy driving hull smaller engine would be adequate (if economical cruising is the deal). Stronger engine would just make bigger waves and burn more fuel, for marginally higher speed.

    "…The boat that I want is …"
    I remembered what types of boats you like and your drawings, yes, good boats I like them too.

    Perry's motor sailor - such light and narrow boat would burn very little fuel. Roll could be helped with a small steadying rig.

    Meta - boats are quite expensive but the yard is very flexible to customers needs. They would sell some of their standard 12 m sailing boat types without keel and rig without any problem.
    Considering how strong and durable Meta boats are, maintenance costs should be very low.
     
  7. Guillermo
    Joined: Mar 2005
    Posts: 3,644
    Likes: 188, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2247
    Location: Pontevedra, Spain

    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Paulo,
    Now that you have worked a lot (My hat is up to you :) ), here you have something else to think about. What about this cat concept?
    http://www.aviadesign.com/MC29Perf.htm

    I know this is a 29 footer, but the concept could easily be brought to 36'. Efficiency in the 10 to 20 kn range seems excellent. Boat's price has to be asked for...
     
  8. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Believe me Milan, there are some misconceptions about the size of the engines of power boats. Some people put some ridiculous powerful engines in them, others think that what you need is a motor that can do just about ¾ of the hull speed of the boat.
    It is not like that, the motor has to have a reserve of power to use when things go wrong , I mean when you are caught in bad weather. The power needed for that can easily triple the one you need for just carrying the boat at hull speed. In a motorboat you have to have that power, for safety. With a sailboat you don’t need it because in gale force winds you have plenty of power with small sails.
    Yes, but then it will not be a motorsailor, not a motorboat. And you will have to pay the rig and the sail maintenance.

    Yes, but the main conclusion I got is that initial price is a huge factor regarding budget cruising and the initial price of those boats would always be high.
     
  9. Vikendios
    Joined: May 2006
    Posts: 13
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Greece

    Vikendios Junior Member

    Fascinating thread, for me at least, because I'm right at the bull-eye having just sold my sailboat to buy a trawler. But I find it very theoretical, so I'd like to make the following down-to-earth comments.

    (1) The Oceanis 39 is only secundarily designed for owners. It has been designed to the requirements of Messrs Sunsail, Moorings, etc.. first and foremost. Draw your own conclusions..

    (2) This has been an European/Australian debate almost exclusively, because of the need to cross over to Corsica or Tasmania will never allow us to use the affordable ICW or Great Lakes type of American motor boat.

    (3) Wind is always cheaper than fuel at 1.2 euro/liter, but in the Med (I live in Greece) my sail / motor ratio is about 20% / 80% of time.

    (4) The man who wrote 'The Proper Yacht' that you all read in the sixties (I think his boat was called Minot's Light) said that anything under 44 feet is not a sea vessel. In my opinion he is right, as least when you're past the age of 50.

    (5) A sail boat can be a young person's toy or an old person's toy. A slow motor boat will never be a young person's toy.

    (6) When you grow older and arthritic (like me) is the time when you'll really start looking at the sail vs. slow motor option. You're probably retiring at that stage in life, so you usually have more money, and certainly much more time, to devote to your new baby. The parameters will have changed. A 10-year old GB 42 becomes a normal alternative to a new Oceanis 39.

    (7) In Med cruising with its instant gales, the ability of a trawler to occasionally plane at twice its hull speed, even if it is unaffordable to use regularly, is a very reassuring 'let's get to shelter quicker' feature even for old salts like me.

    Keep on this great debate.
    Vikendios
     
  10. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Thanks Vikendio.

    The Oceanis is a subject in this thread because this thread is about low budget cruising and that is not obviously what you are interested in.

    About the arthritis, the worst thing you can do is stop moving (I have some problems too). Try Shark cartilage pills (I am not kidding) and don’t stop moving.

    The sailboats that you can compare with the GB 42 are in another league, and they can be considered motorsailors, because they can go on motor anywhere and they have an inside steering station (some with a joystick). They are also boats that are intended to be used by old guys, because those are the only ones that can afford them:p . Their sail systems are highly automatic and mechanized.

    Have a look at these boats:

    http://www.nordship.dk/index.php?id=349&main=Yachts&menu=Nordship DS43&menuid=344

    http://www.fantasi-yachts.se/yachts.asp?lang_id=1&id=1

    http://www.nauticat.com/Default.aspx?id=436827&BoatId=13&ShowView=Photos&PhotoCategory=11

    http://www.reginayachts.com/reg43.html

    The choice between one of those and a GB 42 is a personal thing. That has nothing to do with economy, but with different styles of live;) .

    Regarding seaworthiness, yes it is true that with a GB42 perhaps you can stay away of bad weather or maybe not (it really depends where you are), but if you are caught by it, any of the sailboats will be more confortable to ride through it.

    About this statement: “anything under 44 feet is not a sea vessel. In my opinion he is right, as least when you're past the age of 50”

    Take a look at the post 54 of this thread:) :

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11537&page=4

    Regards

    Paulo

    Ps – About the GB 42 and planing speeds you should be aware of this:

    “The hull form of the GB42 is a semi-displacement design meaning that given enough horsepower planing speeds can be attained. …
    Powered by a single engine, cruising speed ranges from 7 to 10 knots depending on engine horsepower from 120 to 375.
    For example, with twin 210 Cats, the GB42 cruises comfortably and economically at about 10 knots on about 9 gallons of fuel per hour. However, she is capable of a top speed of 15 knots at 23 gallons per hour. This is a 50% increase in speed at the cost of nearly a 200% increase in fuel consumption and reduced cruising range but it’s nice to know you have it if you need it.
    The Grand Banks 42 is not the right boat if you want a full displacement ocean-going motor vessel, but it certainly fits the need of the vast majority of boaters who don’t intend to venture far offshore or cross oceans.
    The Grand Banks 42 easily accommodates a dozen people for cocktails, six can dine in reasonable comfort and when it’s time to turn in for the evening she provides privacy and comfort for four. This is may be why many who are willing to travel at a leisurely, slow pace consider the Grand Banks 42 Classic a near perfect coastal cruising powerboat.”


    http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/power/42GrandBanks.htm

    Those sailboats whose links I have posted can motor cruise at 8knots. For having a substantial difference in speed with the GB42 you need at least two engines with 2x210 hp, and if you want to have the top speed of 20knots, a lot more than that.
     
  11. Guillermo
    Joined: Mar 2005
    Posts: 3,644
    Likes: 188, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2247
    Location: Pontevedra, Spain

    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    It is said that your age in years, length of the boat in feet and minimum angle sailable against wind in degrees, should coincide :D

    And I've also heard that only poor people beat to winward when in extensive cruising...:D :D
     
  12. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Well, as I have promised, I am posting the results comparing a sailboat and a motorboat, regarding cruising costs.

    As I have said it was pointless to make the comparison between the Oceanis and any other comparable new market production motorboat. If that comparison was made the Oceanis would win by a large margin, not because it would be cheaper to operate, but because its initial price would be half of price of the motorboat, and that would have a huge relevance in the final result.

    So I have chosen to make a more complete comparison between those two Willallison’s family boats: The Adams 40 and the Cheoylee 36 (see posts 95-112-116).

    The boats have the same value, but I should point out that, for having the same value the motorboat should be about 10 years older, as it seems to be the case.

    So here are the results:

    (Considering only operating and marina costs and considering that the boats have the same value (89 000 euros) and suffer the same depreciation.)



    For an average cruising of 375miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 9 221 euros towards the motorboat (less expensive).


    For an average cruising of 1500miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 1 012 euros towards the motorboat.


    For an average cruising of 3000miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 9 976 euros towards the sailboat (less expensive).


    For an average cruising of 6000miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 31 922 euros towards the Sailboat.


    Conclusions:


    If you are going to circumnavigate, do that in a sailboat. The difference in operating costs (163 688 euros) will be superior to the cost of a new Oceanis 39 and about 1,5X more than the price of any of the boats compared here.:D

    Only if you are really a cruiser, should you buy a sailboat. If you have the boat to show to your friends, buy a motorboat.:p

    Seriously, my average cruising is of about 2500m/year and with that mileage a sail boat will cost me about 1000 euros less a year and that is not a significant number compared with the total cost of owning a boat.
    Most of my cruiser friends do a lot less mileage a year than I do, and for them a motorboat would be more economical, but never of any importance compared with the total cost.

    Of course, now I can only cruise for about 40 days in a year, but I am preparing things to be able to cruise for about 120 days a year, in about five years. Then it will make a huge difference in total costs.;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. yacht371
    Joined: Aug 2005
    Posts: 64
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 32
    Location: North Vancouver BC Canada

    yacht371 Yacht Designer

    37 foot Motorcat design

    The 37 foot version is found at www.aviadesign.com/mc37.htm

    This one is not yet final, nor approved for production. Comments welcome.

    Grahame Shannon
     
  14. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
    Posts: 3,590
    Likes: 130, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2369
    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    Vega:
    So - the end result - even when operating in Europe, where the cost of fuel is higher than almost anywhere else in the world, is the for the vast majority of people, a motorboat will be cheaper to own and operate than a comparable sailboat.
    I believe my initial point is proven, yet again:D
     

  15. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,519
    Likes: 110, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    One of the things not pointed out yet is the vast majority of time is spent on the hook (or at a dock) while cruising.

    On a "round the world " cruise most report 90% in port time.

    So the question becomes how hard is it ,,$$$$ , time and effort to maintain "your" lifestyle?

    Complex boats with water makers , freezers , air cond , washers , dryers , large refrigerators and sat internet will cost loads more than the folks that think a wind scoop and cockpit sun cover are the Hight of Luxury.

    The simple cost of port to port fuel , isnt much , power or sail, if your'e maintaining a modern luxury HOTEL!

    FAST FRED
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.