"CRUDE" oil, an absolute must see program !!!

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by brian eiland, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    When the potential food agriculture that is excluded, is added into the equation, then the net is probably negative... at commercial levels...
     
  2. masalai
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    masalai masalai

  3. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Well,--- America says its about to recover. Any minute now.
     
  4. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    - - - - - - From the shock at learning that the truth is A LOT WORSE THAN THEY COULD EVER HAVE IMAGINED....

    listen to http://financialsense.com/fsn/main.html all 3 podcasts and lastly by Gerald Celente, Editor & Publisher, The Trends Journal...
     
  5. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    there is actually no single ratio that covers this one given the various production methods used

    being a member of the alcohol fuels group as well I just happen to have that on file
    not sure the table will reproduce itself in a coherent fassion though

    Corn Ethanol (Industry Average) Corn Ethanol (Industry Best) Corn Ethanol (State-of-the-Art) Cellulosic Crop-Based Ethanol
    Fertilizer 12,981 7,542 3,869 3,549
    Pesticide 1,060 643 406 437
    Fuel 2,651 1,565 1,321 8,120
    Irrigation 7,046 6,624 6,046 --
    Other (Feedstock) 3,395 3,248 3,122 2,558
    Total (feedstock) 27,134 19,622 14,765 14,663
    Process Steam 36,732 28,201 26,185 49,075
    Electricity 14,444 7,300 5,148 8,925
    Bulk Transport 1,330 1,100 800 1,330
    Other (process) 1,450 1,282 1,050 2,100
    Total (processing) 53,956 37,883 33,183 61,430
    TOTAL ENERGY INPUT 81,090 57,504 47,948 76,093
    Energy in Ethanol 84,100 84,100 84,100 84,100
    Co-product Credits 27,579 36,261 36,261 115,400
    TOTAL ENERGY OUTPUT 111,679 120,361 120,361 199,500
    Net Energy Gain 30,589 62,857 72,413 123,407
    Percent Gain 38% 109% 151% 162%


    hmmm
    hardly legible

    a ratio of ~1/3

    on average a 38% gain in BTU's is the industry norm
    pretty bad
    but
    celulitic based ethanol has an industry average of 162% today and thats what the future is leaning towards
    but
    yeasts are being developed that can handle up to 30% mash alcohol content
    and that 162% is measured off the typical yeast used today, Saccharomyces, which can only tolerate concentrations of about 12~15%
    so there is an immediate improvement as soon as the new yeast is available in quantity
    thing is when the gas prices went down and the economy tanked
    so did the ethanol industry

    oh
    it takes as much corn ethanol to fill a gas tank as could feed a man for a year
    with some left over
    you are right about that mate
    corn ethanol is not the way to go


    palm oil is one of the biggest evils we got going
    aside from dino sludge that is
    palm oil plantations destroys more forest than just about anything else but logging
    being a woodwright myself I can appreciate a good looking chunk of lumber and the tree it came from
    and timber is a beautifully renewable resource if handled correctly
    which a-typically is becoming more the norm specially in regards to hardwood
    palm oil is far more often than not grown in a slash and burn environment although there are sustainable methods out there
    glad they stopped the project

    cheers
    B
     
  6. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    How about algae from the sea?
    China's secret experiment was uncovered during the Olympics and it sure grew fast.
     
  7. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Palm oil plantations, mile after mile in Malaysia. Some say at least leave a 100yds at the side of the road to make it look nice but no.

    And yes slash and burn is all you will see if there is no plantations.

    This is south kuala Lumpur right over to the East side and down to Johore.
     
  8. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    Ok so its walk to work for a year or drive for one week then starve?
     
  9. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    hehehe - unless one is prepared:D:D:D then it is to enjoy a pleasant walk to the next days commitment to the community in which one lives... and continue to enjoy a sustainable lifestyle...
     
  10. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    there wont be any walking in the future as the planet will be covered with water
     
  11. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    Not true ,--there is only enough frozen ice to raise sea level by 30 meter.
     
  12. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    har har
    and yes algae is being looked into
    I spoke to a researcher in Cali recently who is working with sea urchin enzymes to digest sea weed into feedstock
    problem is salt content being incompatible with existing yeast strains

    sea weed would be a perfect feed stock although its not presently viable
    the proper enzymes and yeast are not readily available
    but its a distinct possibility for the future

    funny that you mention it though
    I have a chart somewhere around here showing a fresh water plant to yielded the highest ratio energy gain with existing technologies
    at present in this vicinity cat tails and switch grass are the two feed stocks with the highest energy gain
    basically about 5~7 times that of corn
    interesting that none of the big energy corps bothered to use the most efficient of feed stocks
    ever wonder why
    my bet is they had a vested interest in the value of corn going through the roof


    the oceans are not likely to rise by 30 meters
    not sure what the actual projected rise is but Ive always disagreed with the idea that its the ocean level that will be the big problem
    ok it would effect rice yield and a few other things but
    its the disturbance of the grand oceanic current that will be the last straw
    and that wont take a 30 meter rise ( or whatever the latest projections are )
    my personal take on the result of all that melting ice hitting the system in just a few short years is that it will sufficiently disturb the ocean circulatory system to leave the oceans basically aerobically stratified causing another anoxic deep ocean die off
    last time that happened we had the largest extinction event since the first time that happened
    which was "the" largest extinction event
    everything down to about 5 Kg died
    ~90% of ocean life
    ~75 of land animals
    then of course there is the snowball earth theory concerning events of about 6 hundred million years ago
    science is not sure what caused it or what exactly happened but basically there is strong evidence to suggest the entire planet froze
    every land form died except microbes
    and nearly every ocean form

    simple history
    and those who do not understand history
    are doomed to repeat it

    cheers
    B
     
  13. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    30m....
    only gunna be a one small island in Singapore

    I think the planet is just repeating its cycle, sea temp goes up, becomes acidic, land temp alters, all the stuff that created the oil comes back etc, as per the movie at the start of the thread and Kevin Costner will become out saviour on his big Cat.

    I hear the Gulf stream is slowing down by plenty even though they havn't been measuring it for very long.. thats going to change a few things!
     
  14. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    That water rise should the global ice melt is fairly easily calculated with access to the appropriate data ground penetrating radar of the ice regions (Iceland & Antarctica) that are above current MSL and on land as opposed to floating and calculations vary and essentially are an "academic exercise " or panic mechanism to reduce the value of canal developments or enhance the credibility of some disaster movie.... numbers vary, anything from centimetres, up to around 70metres.... take your pick....
     

  15. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    not to dive into climate change in the wrong thread but

    the system does exhibit some obvious cycles
    the seasons for instance, solar cycle, orbital pattern, barycentric oscillation things like that
    and there are distinct patterns to be found in various records of things like temp and co2
    take a look at the temp vs co2 over the last 600,000 years and tell me you dont see a pattern
    the real question is the rate of change
    Im going to go ahead and suggest the extinction events are caused by a deviation from the normal rate of change
    basically in each of the previous extinction events it looks like some triggering event caused a rapid change in the rate of the systems typically self adjusting response
    resulting in a near histemic reaction of the system ( the GIA principal )
    over adjustment ( warming then cooling )
    in our present case with the issue of co2 the question is
    did man cause the present rise in co2
    and will co2 effect temp
    simple physics answers the later with a definite yes
    in regards to the first all you have to do is look at the isotopic signature and the answer is a resounding yes as well ( at least among the scientists who actually study this issue, the isotopic signature of the additional co2 seems does have the fingerprint of fossil fuels )
    next question is does that change represent a deviation from the normal rate of change in the system
    answer is a again a resounding yes ( same disclaimer )

    its not much of a leap to go from the rapid alteration of the system towards warming
    to a slowing of the currents because of fresh water influx
    without those currents being strong enough to maintain mixing of thermally stratified oceans
    you dont get oxygen bellow the wave zone ( say the top 100 meters at best )
    for whatever reason that does seem to be what caused the greatest of the extinction events
    and it does appear to be happening again

    the gulf stream has lost as much as 40% of its strength in the last few years
    its not a consistent loss
    some years are worse than others
    but
    its definitely weakening
    thing to remember is that the British Royal Navy has been measuring ocean currents for about 500 years and basically there had been no significant change in that entire time except for the last few years
    also there are some other ways to measure ocean currents from the fossil record which a few guys up at NOAA are writing papers on
    ( I cant wait to read some of that once it becomes available )
    basically they are mapping the temp and strength of the gulf stream over a time frame of say a few million years
    what I get from them so far is that the currents have been consistent over the majority of that time

    what it all adds up to is were screwed and its really to late to alter the system back to were it should be
    might as well mix another drink and kick back
    slap a dunce cap on a few of the more die hard deniers and enjoy the show

    cause all the alternative fuels in the world arent going to make one **** bit of difference at this point

    but its fun to consider using em just in case

    cheers
    B
     
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