Costa Concordia, 80 deg list, really scary !!

Discussion in 'Stability' started by smartbight, Jan 15, 2012.

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  1. Starbuck1
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    Starbuck1 Junior Member

    Thanks also jehardiman for the WT door note.
     
  2. CliffordK
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    CliffordK Junior Member

    I watched much of the documentary again.
    There is a lot to indicate that those clips were actually of the Costa Concordia, including a mention in the documentary of one film clip being taken fo the time of the power loss, showing a similar door followed by darkness, then emergency lighting.

    You're right, it should have said something like "Vietato Entrata". But, the note was obviously hand written rather than a placard, and there are crew members and passengers that are familar with both English and Italian. And "No Entry" takes fewer letters, and is likely clearer to everyone involved.

    So, these are type 1 doors, permitted to be open during "normal operations".

    Timing is uncertain. Some of the clips had to be taken after the power failure, at least 10 minutes into the event, but one can not be certain how much later.

    I find it doubtful that the doors are intended to remain open, or otherwise unlatched following a critical grounding and multi-compartment flooding.

    I realize this is getting beyond "stability", but the failures likely also involved human complacency, along with design failures.

    One additional note. The second and final grounding also would have involved puncturing forward starboard compartments which might not have been flooded by the initial grounding. Thus, more of the lower decks would have been flooded at that time, causing increasing instability.
     
  3. Starbuck1
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    Starbuck1 Junior Member

    Grounding effects??

    A commenter on gCaptain noted that when the ship went aground, it grounded at the deep stern first, pivoted with the wind, and then the bow grounded, and that the stern was a narrow end, near the centerline, giving little or no stability or support compared to the broad flat bottom.

    If the forward grounding was also on a pinnacle or a narrow base like the turn of the bilge forward, would this tend to amplify the rolling moment of the ship, moving the roll center from the center of buoyancy to the points of grounding.

    With the ship just sitting without a lot of weight on the rocks, the shift of righting moment would be slight, but with the ship gaining weight as it filled, the overturning moment would grow rapidly. Right? Do we know where the two rocks are that the ship is sitting on according to recent reports?

    Could this be the cause of the final 90º roll, or is the unbalanced flooding and "lifebelting" on the high side enough?
     
  4. CliffordK
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    CliffordK Junior Member

    Thanks,
    That is what I had wondered about. A full width compartment would allow the ship to settle down vertically, but also have an amount of instability.

    But, there apparently was nothing to prevent flooding of all 6 generators and 2 propulsion motors.

    A lot of flooding, or otherwise loss of buoyancy of only one half of the ship would be bad. How wide could one safely have "wing compartments" in a 35 meter wide ship? 10m/15m/10m? 5m/25m/5m?

    The dragging rock penetration was somewhat limited in depth, but still a few meters deep at the deepest. A two ship collision penetration could be much deeper, but perhaps more localized, unless there was a collision + dragging.

    Ideally one should be able to remotely "manage" water in flooded compartments, opening or closing compartments to maintain ship stability. So, if listing to the Port, open some port to starboard passages. If listing to starboard, close the port to starboard passages.

    Overtopping of the bulkheads still needs to be explained, as the water should have been contained to those areas below the waterline, at least until Deck 4 (lifeboat deck) was inundated

    Drills should not only be for the benefit of the passengers, but also for the benefit of the crew. Perhaps having regular extended Emergency Response training for the entire crew a few times a year (if it isn't already being done). Even in the passenger drills, there should be crew members dedicated to making sure the lower cabins are emptied, and all watertight passages (types 1 and up) are properly sealed. If the drills are done in port, even the Captain should partake in the drills (well, except for jumping into the life boat).
     
  5. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    Those doors would just slow the flooding, not stop it...look at the structure they are mounted too, thay would never support flooding pressure. Type 1 doors are fitted for something far more dangerous: fire and smoke. Think of a normal household door trying to contain a flooding, that is not it's purpose. The fact that the door has a hasp and the note on it leads me to believe that it is to a storeroom or other semi-secure space.
     
  6. Starbuck1
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    Starbuck1 Junior Member

    Hull sections

    CliffordK,
    The pictures I mentioned looked like the side tanks/compartments were about 3-4 meters wide, like a 4-26-4 section or so. None on CConcordia. If they had been on CC, probably only 2 or 3 of the compartments would have flooded instead of 5, and the ship would have been stable and floating today. They still would have flooded one or more engine rooms and the motor room, but the ship would have survived.

    msc divina stx.jpg (wing tanks/compartments)

    Costa Concordia Hull Section.jpg (none)

    Costa Deiziosa.jpg (none)
     

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  7. smartbight
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    smartbight Naval Architect

    See typical 'hotel' work deck/crew quarters 'main drag' which I believe is deck 0 on Carnival Conquest (sistership).
    Since we don't have much in way of 'blueprints' we can compare with the same 'Main Street' called the Burma Road on the Queen Mary and imagine them on the CC.
     

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  8. smartbight
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    smartbight Naval Architect

    There is your answer, as quoted from the Telegraph:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-ships-speed-for-dinner-with-ex-dancer.html

    "The captain “slowed down the ship so that he could finish dinner in peace”, just prior to sailing close to Giglio in order to perform a ‘salute’ to an old colleague on the island, prosecutors alleged in a report.

    He then ordered the ship’s speed to be increased to 16 knots “despite the proximity of obstacles, the presence of shallow water, the conditions under which the ship had to manoeuvre and the night-time darkness,” prosecutors charged.

    As a result of the increased speed he was unable to maintain “an adequate distance” between the ship and the island. "
     
  9. IEWinkle
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    IEWinkle Retired Naval Architect

    Discovery's version of C C in UK

    Scheduled to run at 10 pm Sunday - might be worth watching!

    Some serious technical errors - lack of any serious attempt to look into the flooding sequence - disappointing!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
  10. Heiwa
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    Heiwa Naval architect

    Example of using stability calculations to find out what happened:
    http://heiwaco.tripod.com/epunkt217.htm

    And also an example what an Accident Investigation Commission can overlook and nobody asks any questions. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Pascal Warin
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    Pascal Warin Junior Member

    Discussing matter without knowing loading condition and real extent of damage is worthless effort. As is the discussion about the quality of investigation when it is under way.

    The too close, too fast initial mistake may be linked to the master playing "joli coeur" with moldovian beauty but is neither of much interest as this is not likely to increase or reduce his personal fault.
     
  12. Heiwa
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    Heiwa Naval architect

    It is quite depressing to read what media reports about the Costa Concordia incident, e.g. that the Master was running the ship from the dining room, etc., and nothing about the ship and the incident.
    But maybe it was Costa ISM standard to run the ship from the dining room? You cannot blame the Master for THAT!
     
  13. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    The dining room, oh my God, imagine if he'd been sleeping!

    They never sleep right? I mean how could they, it would be reckless wouldn't it?

    -Tom
     
  14. Starbuck1
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    Starbuck1 Junior Member

    Too bad he didn't stay in the dining room

    I'll speculate that if he had stayed in the dining room, the bridge crew would have done a perfectly good job of turning the ship, and probably leaving a half mile of clearance from the island or more.

    It appears from the AIS track that they were starting the turn when it was overridden and turned back straight to get closer to the island, about the time the Captain came up to the bridge.

    Then he made the fatal mistake of holding his course about 30-60 seconds too long before starting his turn, and not realizing in the dark that he was on a collision course with the island until too late. That said, lets stay with stability here.
     

  15. Heiwa
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    Heiwa Naval architect

    Well, the Master can sleep in his bed room because navigation is the responsibility of other officers on the ship ... that are awake. Team work, you know. The food served aboard is the responsibilty of persons preparing it. Like the cleaning of the cabins. The Master is not cleaning the cabins on the ship. Same with safety. Etc. If you think that anything going wrong on a stupid round cruise in west Med is the fault of the Master you don't know much. Just open your eyes! Who is responsible?
     
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