Cost Of Traditional Wood Build Vs Various Modern Techniques

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Boston, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    If they have bronze. this is the problem. And if they have it, it will be same price.
     
  2. TollyWally
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    TollyWally Senior Member

    Sourcing materials is an artform almost but at the end of the day you are working in an envelope trying to optimize against a known benchmark.

    Nice reality check on the fasteners Tad!

    Boston,
    You are sounding like you may intend to manufacture your own fasteners at your buddy's machine shop. If he "pounds out specialty fasteners all day long" then he should be able to ballpark a number off the top of his head. So obviously if you guys have been discussing this back and forth the topic of cost will have come up.

    Supply your own feedstock etc. How many # of raw material is it going to take for a thousand fasteners at what sort of price per each?

    So you've planned a 50' boat with a motor you already have and a 20 grand hull built on cheap land in another state you haven't purchased yet. What's your rough numbers getting this boat to splash and trials?
     
  3. Oyster
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    Oyster Senior Member

    Agreed,,,The issue these days is that all the stock seems to be coming from overseas with even the ones selling and claiming that the fasteners are American made, the tooling from what I am understanding is dated to say the least, leaving you with inferior stock. So pricing is a key issue for me, since most folks are selling the same stuff. I consistantly buy bronze from a mom and pop company in Atlanta in hopes to keep them going in these times. I can also buy small quantities of a variety of sized fasteners unlike I have been able to do with Jamestown. While in this issue we are talking about a large number, few people are now building 50 foot wooden hulls. So my post was also directed at those folks too.
     
  4. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Boston,

    If you are not using epoxy....and you are building a double diagonal planked hull on widely spaced longitudinal stringers.....you will need many small plank to plank fasteners. The New Zealanders use copper nails with roves, or you could use screws. Plastic nails won't do it, they are only for use as temporary clamps while the epoxy sets. This construction will also require many big screws or bolts into the stringers.

    The deck framing construction will require hundreds of bolts, as will the backbone/floors....so you are going to make 1000 bolts...each one takes 15 minutes...that's only a month of 8 hour days.....
     
  5. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Oyster has very correctly pointed out another big problem with a traditional build....it's not just the cost of the fasteners....it's their quality.....really first class material may now be unobtainable....so making your own has to start with forging your alloy......leather lashings dipped in bear grease may be better than crappy galvanized steel.

    Or as stated you can certainly get really good fasteners, from the tiny local foundry....but they don't usually do things in big numbers and the price will be higher than the mass market guys like Jamestown. I agree totally with using local suppliers.....but you have to work at it and be willing to wait and pay accordingly.
     
  6. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    I got my timber (500m 1"x5" spruce) with two salmons (10kg each about 200e..) :)
     
  7. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    Where the bottom frame meets the side frame and the sole joist come together with ply gussets each side you need two bolts. 48' needs 72 bolts with frames spaced 16" on center. Add another 36 for the Keel attachment to the bottom frames and ten more for the stem. Bottom and side planking either with ply or lumber can be installed with clamps using quality epoxy adhesive with screws driven in when done through both layers in the cold mould.
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Im hoping to be in the water for about 60k but thats a really preliminary number
    I have to complete the plans first and then I can price the build

    I found several pieces of raw land in the Oregon area and within a reasonable shot of the water for <10K and I would sell it off soon as I was done, hopefully ( I actually found a few at 3500 higher on the Columbia in farm country and in easy shot of the river
    that or I could rent a barn or shed in the same area

    I used to forge all the time for hot shoeing the horses and I can beat a head onto a piece of bar stock in about 30 seconds
    my anvil even has a special tool for specifically that move
    threading it is clamping it into the lathe and flipping a switch
    takes maybe a few minutes tops
    I used to help out my friend in the machine shop every once in a while when he had a big order
    oh
    the nuts are harder to make than the bolts any day

    screwes are a mater of feed stock
    the machine pretty much pounds out shavings and screws
    its about a 50/50 mix
    if I remember it pays a few cents less a lb to return the shavings than buy the stock
    which Denis gets wholesale anyway by he ton
    so although fasteners are a big part of the issue they are not the game killer you might think

    we talked about a week not a month of full time shop work on the lathe for the bolts
    the only real work you put into the screws is in setting up and reloading the feed stock
    after that all you do is make sure the shoot stays clear
    its really boring
    thing spits out screws faster than you can blink
    might take a day to run however many I would need

    I have a preliminary estimate for wood glue and fasteners around here somewhere and I think it came out to about 12000 in wood 8000 in fasteners and 5000 in epoxy but Id have to look it up
    although someone mentioned that I was high on the epoxy and low on the fasteners a while back
    I keep trying to find a way to avoid epoxy but I think in the end Im stuck with it
    Par suggested 9# shellac would work fine but its just as expensive as epoxy and not as water proof

    once again
    I need to hammer down the technique and then I can calculate the cost better

    cheers
    B
     
  9. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    These folks actually did it......cost for their dirt simple 34' was about $70k cash, he did the building (4 years full time) while she worked and earned the money required.

    Briney Bug is 29,000 pounds, 1/2 to 2/3rds the size of your 47'....so $105 - $140k is your (real) doable budget with similar construction, finish, and systems.

    http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com/news/brineybugtherigh.html
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Please be polite and do´nt quote me wrong!
     
  11. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Yikes
    that is one but ugly boat Tad

    at some point money is not the only consideration

    now that I'v got a better idea of how Im going to build it
    double diagonal with epoxy or some other glue between each layer 3 layers total
    stringers over bulkheads
    I can begin to estimate my weight budget and hammer out a real plan

    after that I need to put my head on the chopping block and present it for scrutiny/abuse and go from there

    then I can work up some real numbers on cost and not just be guessing

    my finances are dwindling fast but even just one moment of success and I can do this
    I once was doing just fine on a huge ranch with dozens of horses and a barn full of nice cars
    I can do it again somehow and put this thing together eventually

    uggg I look back at all the money I hemorrhaged just out goofing around and it just makes me cringe
     
  12. TollyWally
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    TollyWally Senior Member

    Lord, give me just one more boom. I promise not to piss it away this time.

    written on a bathroom wall in a bar in Kodiak in the mid 80's
     
  13. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Well....I'm surprised to hear that from the fellow who is running 3 separate threads..."Cost of....Bang for Buck....Which is Cheaper?".....:D

    I think that is what many have been trying to tell you....glad you got the
    message....really....

    I don't think it matters one bit whether BB fits your aesthetic requirements....thing is, she's out there...doing it....and those folks owe nobody nothing...they are free (at least for a while) to go more or less where they like and when they like....for that they have my admiration.

    We get the same snide comments from the perfect party boat weekenders in their yachts...they go by us out sweating in the sun (or soaking in the rain, more likely) replacing planks, hand sawing, pounding spikes, scraping and painting. Look at that rotten old boat....damn hippies. But we own her, owe no one, and on Monday when they are back in the cubicle, trying to pay for the boat they'll never own, we'll still be here in paradise with the otters and the eagles....
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    well I suppose Im just asking for it all
    a good looking boat large enough to jam my tools into and built to outlive my sorry *** in such a way as I can get it done in my life time
    yup
    asking for the moon

    I know I know
    to many toys and not enough sense
    well I learned my lesson the hard way
    I basically lost everything and went on to live with a friend
    and then watch as one neighbor after another lost there homes and lives
    speaking of which my one neighbor who was holed up in his house refusing to be kicked out finally left without a fight

    friend of mine is trying to talk me into selling my bed room set as it is just about enough to buy the land
    says "what are you going to do with it once you get the boat build anyway"
     

  15. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Hey Tad I found these guys at $1.29 each for #18 3" silly bronze

    http://www.mertons.com/Fastenings/wood_screws.html

    I'll need to check around when the time comes for the cost of feed stock and what Denis wants for to run the machine for a day but if I can find em cheap enough and in a decent quality then I might just buy

    1.29 each works out to ~$7000 in fasteners and if Im gluing the layers together anyway then I was under the impression I could go with the plastic staples

    reading back through I was kinda liking your idea of a sandwich red cedar and fir although I just hate fir it is cheap and slathered in epoxy its bound to last a while
     
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