Is it possible?

Hello, I joined this forum only moments before for the purpous of writing this and much more. I watched the new movie 10,000bc last month, thought it was well made, but terribly told. One thing gripped me however, the egyptian ships. They were by far the coolest ships ever. They looked like this.

If they are possible or could possibly work, I was really wanting to make a small "slightly different" replica. The position of the masts reminds me of the oriental ships in china or japan, and the sails are just awesome... from the looks of them, the ships must turn on a dime since the sails can be turned independently and possibly raised and lowered in elevation, maybe with a pulley system. Also, if built right, it would have to be a pretty fast boat with the sails being so large and the hull being so narrow. What do you guys think?

 

I have a very limited number of drawing for vessels like this, most gathered from the greats who had an interest. They had nicely balanced waterlines, but were very burdened craft, designed to carry hefty loads, but they surely had a bow and stern, meaning they went one way and came about to go the other. The burdened shapes coupled with the lack of appendages, means they were poled or stroked to windward and the rig was used with the wind. This coupled with the movie animator's ideas of what a prehistoric ship looked like (they took many liberties), practicality steps in and suggests some more research is necessary, on a very difficult to study subject (there's just very little information about ships much older the 5,000 years). Contact the Egyptians, who will like now be experiencing a renewed interest in these ships, as a result of similar requests.

 

Not only could this work, it's been working for thousands of years!

Go to google, select "images" and type in "Arab Dhow"

Or by the wonder of modern technology simply click here

 

From the looks of the Dhow, they seem to be very similar, indeed. However, both sails are facing the same direction and don't have the same... wingspan(?) as the ships from 10,000bc. This doesn't mean they aren't the same style of ship however. Any more thoughts?

 

Are you saying you've seen these somewhere? From what the movie showed, these ships were holding upwards of 30 to 50 people, so I can understand that they were fairly burdened. The movie is known to not be historically correct, because I don't think that prehistoric man would have ships this advanced OR metal weapons and armor. Do you think it would be possible to make a scale replica of something like this, maybe out of a canoe. LIKE THIS! FOUND IT ONLINE.

Looks like it would work with a little experimentation, what do you guys think?

 

The Dhow is possibly a very distant cousin, but not especially similar in hull form, to the Egyptian craft that brought limestone hunks up the Nile, which these seem to be patterned after.

The movie pre dates the Mesopotamian era. There are some physical remains and records of the time, but not much, mostly picturegraphs and portions of decorated pottery, depicting scenes of everyday life or special events.

I haven't seen the movie, but Egyptian craft of the great dynasties (pyramid building) had a primitive lateen (eventually), which is set on a diagonal yard, affixed to a mast. Depending on wind direction, the yards and their sails can look like they're spun around, but there not, more likely they're just well before the wind and running "wing and wing", which appears such to some, not familiar with the rig.

When the Sphinx was excavated a number of years ago, they found an intact funeral barge, very much like what you're interested in. It has been on display ever since with many models and a few replications built. Look it up



This is Khufu's funeral barge.



A model of the same.

These Papyrus boats where not much more then bundles of reeds tied together. The Egyptian sailing rig didn't appear until around 3,500 BC and it was a square sail. The lateen is a natural development of the square sail, meaning it would have been a technological advancement, particularly to windward if sufficient lateral area was available.



This is a guesstimate of what a Mesopotamian era boat would look like, built with similar methods, materials and technology, not too long ago. Again the square sail a hull shape designed to go in one direction, also made from reeds. The replication depicts a 4,000+ year old vessel. This would have been several thousand years more advanced then a boat of 10,000 BC.

In short, considerable liberties have been taken by the movie. Sure you could build one or something like what you saw, but it would likely not be a very good boat for other then coffee table discussions. I mean no disrespect, but being a bit of a history buff myself, I get pissed when they don't bother with the research, like having a scene in a western where a cell phone relay tower isn't air brushed out of the background, as the hero rides off into the 1880's sun set.

If you want to build a reed boat, go for it. If you want to build a lateen rig on a canoe, I suggest you make it quite small and prepare to swim shortly after launch.

 

Those are Nile Feluccas.

http://www.avalon-luxor.com/image/larg/Nile Feluccas.JPG

http://images.google.co.uk/images?q...GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

Pericles

 

Building an Arab Dhow today

While the design of the dhow is pretty much straight forward and with few compound curves, a modern version might use plywood bulkheads and laminated keel which would then be formed and completed with a couple of layers of strip planking that are encased in epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. The Egiptian Feluccas carry a high lateen sail to capture modest winds across the desert and would probably sail well with shortened rigs or multiple masts. Search the Internet for the designs as Dhows and Feluccas are still being built by hand and the design of the hull,sail and mast may be available to potential builders. They definitely are interesting cargo carrying vessels that harken back to pre-Roman times or further.

 

Here is a lucky strike.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74214

Pericles

 

Good information

These are some good references and I believe your next step may be in building a 1/10th scale model of the vessel that you are thinking about. The use of ply forms and strip plank should enable the model to be built fairly fast and provide you first hand experience for construction of a full size vessel. Most dhows are built right-side-up from all of the information that I have seen. Good eye-ball data can be gotten from the National Geographic web site of real Arabian dhows being built.

 

I think the closest match to what I've been looking for is either the Dhow or the Felucca with the Lateen sail. From what I've been looking at, it seems that the hulls of the two are similar to that of the canoe, and if that is the truth, then I might be able to make a Dhow or Felucca out of a canoe, right?

 

As you can see, though it's double ended, the hull is quite "wholesome" having a much wider beam/length ratio than a typical canoe. A disproportionately small rig could be used on a canoe, but I don't think you'd like the results.