Cost effective Epoxy formulation

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by goodwilltoall, Aug 7, 2010.

  1. dangtue
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    dangtue Junior Member

  2. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Dangtua,

    Would like to get a copy of the book. How do you go about doing that.
     
  3. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Greetings,

    Recieved "Epoxy Adhesive Formulations" and read several chapters, though not throughly. This book gives good description of the basic ingredients and thier characteristics that are needed to adjust the formula. The formulations given are mostly for aerospace, automotive, and medical, formulations for wood are lacking.

    Hexion has good formula's available on their website, knowing more about the qualities resulting by adding different compounds will help much. Leaning on using Epon 828 resin with polyamide CA. Along with using tougheners which crosslink instead of flexibilizers will help with reducing brittleness. Still not sure of what to add to reduce viscosity, but mention was made that diluents do not crosslink and are a poor choice.

    This is just a beginning idea, as maybe just a third of the book was read. Author does mention it is part art as well. In a few months hope to actually consult with manufactures and distributers on thier opionions and get exact requirements prior to purchasing.
     
  4. Herman
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    Herman Senior Member

    I doubt that going through all the trouble of formulating a glue yourself is worth the effort.

    However, you can reduce the viscosity of 828 by adding a reactive diluent, like EPD-HD or similar. (also from Hexion).
     
  5. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    We are holding our breath to see how this new stunt will end! Sure the manufacturers will be happy to provide you with the latest developments and products.
    In your case I would first ask for a few tonnes of each formulation, for simple field testing!!!
    If their stuff does not come up to your specific requirements, you could donate it here to some homebuilders.

    though...... I am still wondering who left your kennel door open:D
     
  6. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Apex,

    Quit acting like a baboon. Epoxy manufactures do offer free samples as they were offered but had to decline as it was not yet determined what was needed.

    There are many formulas that will work acceptably, but the purpose here is to methodically come to the most optimal formula with a cost effective solution, your snide remarks are unnecessary and if you keep it up, youll be the one left looking stupid when its accomplished.

    Peace.
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Don´t you read what we tell you since ages?

    YOU will not do a new formulation, you just don´t have the knowledge and the right partners in the industry.
    And opposite to your lie, the industry will not provide any samples for a amateur to play with. They will not sell you any raw material either. They will not even laugh about your childish enquiry, they just ignore it.

    To find a "cost effective" formulation which is not already there is another premature dream.
    On top, you cannot afford it.
    And last, it is as superflouous as it can be, because for each and all and every single purpose you might encounter, there are more than a few formulations already available.

    You are the one who makes a sillier picture here with every single post.

    Richard
     
  8. missinginaction
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    missinginaction Senior Member

    OK, if you can brew up your own epoxy for say $30 US versus paying retail of perhaps $80 US and you need 100 gallons you will "save" $5,000 US.

    Fine.

    What about the costs associated with the brewing though? You'll need a place to brew. Will this be at home or someplace you rent? What about materials related to mixing and "brewing". Pumps, measuring equipment, containers for mixing and storing all cost money. How will you store what you've made? What about containers for the finished products? What if you have an accident and spill 50 gallons, is that a HAZMAT issue. If I was to somehow have a fire I'm wondering how my home insurer would react (if I'm doing it at home)? Oh, what about safety gear? Do you need respirators and protective clothing and such?

    What about your time? Time to research. Time to experiment? What is your time worth to you?

    It just seems like a lot of trouble. I look at it like this, if I have to worry about the cost of epoxy I should probably find another hobby. Why? Because after the boat is done you'll need such things as seacocks and thruhulls and marine electronics and electrical systems. Those items will really give you "sticker shock".

    Good luck whatever you do.....

    MIA
     
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  9. Herman
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    Herman Senior Member

    2 things to say:

    The cost of raw materials (as in: raw epoxy, Momentive Epikote 828) does not differ THAT much from the end product you are trying to achieve, to make it worthwhile to experiment, unless that is your hobby.

    I roughly pay 5 USD for 828, and 10 dollar for epoxy glue. Counting the cost of other ingredients, I would not crank up my mixer (I have a 14 HP dissolver). Most other needed ingredients are 10 USD or over.

    On cost of boatbuilding:

    The nice thing about the composite part is that you spend 1000 USD and the materials obtained keep you going for a while, allowing you to save (or get used to) the next round of spending money.
    Later in the project you need a 10.000 USD engine. Which is installed in 1 or 2 days. You need a 30.000 rig. Which is installed in a day. That is when big money leaves your pocket fast.
     
  10. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    This forum is the best forum to learn something. We have the best pro, ready to answer questions.
    Richard by the volume of boat built, is an expert in epoxy, so inset of barking at him, learn something, ask genuine questions, and you can be assured that the answer will be informative, truthful and baked by years of experience.
    You are just a Sunday scientist who want to reinvent the wheel, so you will have always an excuse to do nothing, but bothering people because you read a book.
    Daniel
     
  11. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    1. The most cost efficient epoxy is the one that works and you don't have to worry about it.
    2. The cost of other materials far exceed cost of epoxy on any boat.
    3. The worst, and I mean worst thing in the world is a bad epoxy goo that never tries that you have to physical remove.
    4. Epoxy mixing is very complicated, it is an art as well as a science and even the experts fail sometimes. You will fail at least some of the time causing greater costs than what you saved.
    5. There is a big difference in quality between cheaper epoxy and better epoxies
    6. Only a fool asks advice from experts and refuses to listen. Oh, some people call that arrogance.

    Oh by the way most of us have been working with epoxies longer probably than you have been alive, and more than you ever will.
     
  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    To be a truly "cost effective" formulation, you need to employ the goo in a profitable venture. Currently, as I've mentioned before, the lowest retail rate on epoxy (in the USA) is about $52 a gallon for a 2:1 marine grade, non-blushing mixture. To get this price you need to purchase 3 gallons (2 gallons resin, one of hardener). If you have a business license, you can get the same epoxy for about $42 a gallon. If you have some connections and epoxy reformulation buddies, you can get epoxy for about $30 a gallon, but you'll need to buy a fairly large quantity of goo (15 gallons or more).

    If you need to get cheaper then this, you need to maybe look for another industry to wave a magic wand in, because 30 to 40 bucks a gallon is a fantastic price for a moderately low viscosity, non-blushing, moderately modified, marine resin/hardener system. The short of the story is, you can get epoxy, good quality goo for a moderate price, but first you have to have a need for it and second you have to purchase to support his need, in quantities that don't require several years to absorb the material and costs.

    If you want to go past these figures, you'll have to reformulate yourself, but you'll also have to purchase "minimums" from the raw materials suppliers. It would be nice if you could get a quart of this and a pint of that to fool around with, but most suppliers don't want to screw around with a novice who's shipping costs are going to be more then the actual quantities of raw product they purchase. This is the whole point behind purchasing minimums. These weed out the torturous and the tinkerers, leaving the folks that really want to do business. In other words, these material producers are setup to ship out 15 gallon or 30 gallon lots on pallets or several hundred gallon lots in barrels. They aren't setup to pour off a quart of this or that. Now, if you know some formulators, you may be able to get some small quantities.

    Lastly, without a serious understanding of the chemistry involved and more importantly, testing, to verify your new formulations, you'll never know what to add to what and how this new formulation affected the physical properties of the matrix. I have a strong chemical background and have considered reformulation, but now just accept the realities of the products I use, some of which are proprietary (they call it PAR mix) as I've developed relationships with local formulators.

    Again, if $30 a gallon for a resin/hardener mix is too much for you to take, then maybe drama lessons for a little off Broadway work?
     
  13. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Greetings,

    Par,

    Thats about right, $30-$40 per gallon for 50-100 gallons total. Seems most of you misunderstood, the idea is not to begin a new formulation but to find the right one. There are many formulations available that will work and learning about the qualities of different ones will help as well.

    Peace.
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    What "right one" do you need? Why is your application any different then someone else's marine application?

    As a rule, the major brands all fall within a very close physical attributes range, each with very similar tension, elongation, compression, etc. qualities. You appear to be attempting to split hairs on a bald man. Most of the formulations have MDS that you can download for comparative purposes. With the exception of the pre-mixes and the specialty resins that have been designed for specific uses (like G-Flex for example), all the major brands are within a few percent of each other. I can't imagine your needs requiring you hone down your choices better then a couple of percent.

    Again is there something specific you want?
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Yes piece.....


    don´t row back goodwilly.

    You tried to convince us that you are willing, able, and going to make a new economic epoxy formulation.

    That is a pipe dream.

    Now come up where it was lie, and where it was a dream, to tell us pro´s why, and where it was possible and sensible?

    Regards
    Richard
     
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