Cost effective Epoxy formulation

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by goodwilltoall, Aug 7, 2010.

  1. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Manufactures of epoxy and even suppliers are usually friendly and willing to help with formulations. They are the most experienced with thier products and know what will work.

    Peeling away from a substrate is usually caused by impurities during application. If the wood is properly prepared the epoxy itself is the last reason for peeling problem as adhesion is one of epoxies greatest attributes.
    Its guaranteed to stick if CP is 1000 or less and use of modifier is kept under 10%. Using a CA with more flexibility rather than than hardness/abrasion will also help.

    Anyone that is going to use 50 gallons or more of epoxy would benefit from mixing their own.

    BTW, Teddy diver post #12 is an excellent source you gave. Godwilling, when time is available the book will be aquired and further study made. Will try to find out print date, as new curing agents are always coming out, it would be good if the book is not more than 5 years old.
     
  2. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Make sure you put lots of screws to hold the wood together when epoxy you invented to save money starts letting go and your boat becomes wet cardboard.
    That is what the ocean will do to it...
     
  3. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Post 17: There is an article done by HIWSA where a large boat was being built and the epoxy was found to be strong enough through testing to support all stresses it would encounter including even the keel. Eventhough epoxy testing proved epoxy alone could be used to construct the boat, it was not allowed and bolts and fasteners were used because otherwise it would not be certified meeting Lloyds specifications. Do understand they are trying to rectify this.
    Off course the right formula will be used and with today's easily accessable knowledge base that's not hard to do. No reason to be pessimistic and afraid, its done all the time.
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Goody,

    you donĀ“t get it. Nobody here is pessimistic, no one is afraid.

    We are happy as Larry with the 278.922 formulations we have easily available. In the rare cases we are not, we get another formulation done over night.

    So easy is colour TV.....................
     
  5. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Apex,

    If its so easy, than why keep inferring it cant be done by others? When able to find time, hope to get some good formulas for people to get familiar with and be able to use to thier advantage for boatbuilding. The cats out of the box and those initiated into the 33rd boatbuilders rite can only cry.

    Peace.
     
  6. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Goodwill you don't get something....

    Would you build your own rocket ship to go to the moon. If your smart you wouldn't either. A ship in a storm in the ocean will kill as quickly as a trip to moon if you are not ready. There people out there with much more experience than you in building it. Cost is not the issue... Safety and reliability is.
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Who did that please?

    And why are you trying to solve a non existent problem? Whats your goal? The 300.001 thousandth formulation, just for the sake of having it?
     
  8. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    To all - I have decide to have a couple of drinks before answering any posts by goodwilltoall. So pardon me if I dont make sense sometimes... But he is driving me to drink...
     
  9. J3
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    J3 Junior Member

    The catch-22 might be: you need enough volume to make it worthwhile to research and set the whole system up to mix your own resin and guarantee quality and quality control, and if you have that volume, you have the buying power to simply get it from a supplier at a much reduced rate that reduces the incentive to mix your own and maintain that whole operation. How much profit is in the resin formulation and mixing business - can you even get the raw components in small volumes to make it feasible? In small volumes, does safety equipment, shipping/sourcing arrangement, test batches, testing, equipment itself, etc. make the profit margin disappear? (e.g. is the quality of all the incoming raw materials guaranteed or is that your responsibility as the formulator?)

    I don't know. Sure if you have the money, cost is not he issue. If you don't have it, it becomes an issue. How many real-world boats are built without budget being a major factor? But if you have to risk, risk somewhere else that's not fundamental to the boat's structure I say, or at least something that can be replaced if it doesn't work out in a worst case. I suspect a lot of cheaper builders however do cut corners in areas that can't be seen by customers but also can't be easily fixed :( The fact that it's not common practice to formulate your own says something about the risk to me.

    I have never seen a thread or site with DIY epoxy recipes that were used by a homebuilder or small builder. It would be very interesting if it were possible to save money responsibility, but even if apex1 wouldn't be "afraid" where it would be a $/productivity issue for someone building many boats, I would be "afraid" of the increased risk of one bad mix which would mean years of my work lost.

    I'll be very interested if you come up with something and try it though. 999 times out of 1000 when no one is doing something there is a good reason. But there's still that grain of sand, the 1 time someone might look at an idea that everyone else passed on that does work out and makes them successful...
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    You hit the nail!

    It is just not possible (even for the majority of smaller boatbuilders) to get the raw material in small batches to experiment with the stuff. And by no means it is cheap, if.
    But the thread is clearly labeled "cost effective"............

    The fact that I am not "afraid" is simply because I process several hundred tonnes of the stuff p.a. and must not bother about formulations. We specify our demand and get what we want. As I said before, it is the suppliers insurance cost raising when something goes wrong, not mine. But be assured, they are really careful with the product they deliver, in such quantities.

    For any homebuilder there is just NO SENSE in trying what our stubborn Goody tells us being a advantage.

    Mydauphin is dead right, being stoned helps to understand his objectives.....

    Regards
    Richard
     
  11. wardd
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    wardd Senior Member

    Richard, in what way is what you require different from the standard epoxy formulation?
     
  12. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    NOT,

    that makes it so senseless what our newbie tries to achieve here.

    There are some cases when we need "special" formulations, but they are not "special" for our manufacturers / fomulators.

    One case is a high Tg point for dark hulls in hot climate, another typical approach is a little higher flex for some areas where the common flexibility is insufficient. Glueing Teak, Oak or Iroko is the third task I can recall, again standard for all professional suppliers

    But that is nothing one cannot buy off the shelf.
    Though the amateur builder will have to purchase from different brands if he encounters all three cases in one project, which I doubt.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  13. goodwilltoall
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    How is it not cost effective if someone needs 50-100 gallons and cost is $30.00 per gallon? For anyone that needs that amount of volume or more, it is worth your while to learn and buy in bulk, it called "cutting out the middle man".

    As you say the formulas are sometimes prescribed by the manufacturer for certain characteristics , which if followed will achieve them and if not it is the manufactures fault, if you buy a certain paint and manufacturer says good for five years, if it fails within five years, he should replace it if used as advised by the manufacturer.

    Second of all, those woods you mention (iriko, teak, oak) are not ones anyone USING EPOXY should consider for building a boat with. They could be used for looks and asthetics , but in conjuntion with epoxy for structural purposes they would be doomed to failure.

    As mentioned earlier: look for low viscosity, high flexibility, reasonable working time, right species of wood, and recommended formula from the manufacturers chemist and a sure shot system will work for your project.

    Testing batchs for purposes of finding the right formula has already been accomplished, through 60 years of use, no reason to go through those motions again when epoxy formulation abilities are long established and proven through everyday use. There is no catch-22.

    Cost is the issue and reason for informing others as well as continued learning. Epoxy purchases in bulk are very cost effective and wonder if those against it have certain interests in keeping knowledge of this for thier own advantage.
     
  14. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    What are you trying here?

    You tell ME about wood or epoxy resin?

    Look at my gallery and read my comments on your nonsense here.

    You are a nut case or a child.
     

  15. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Goodwill,

    Apex and I are being honest with you. That is all.
    Let give you a hint; Apex builds many a boat in WOOD AND EPOXY. I build them in Aluminum and Epoxy. We have both invent, mix our own, and played with it for years - it just not worth it. You will find out one day and you will be here telling someone with the same question.
     
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