construction plan opinions needed for my proposed boat project

[El_Guero]

You guys take all the fun out of sailing ....

 

[PAR]

Recouvrance is a bit wide (21'), though an 82' schooner is a little touch of an over reach for a novice. If memory serves, Phil Bolger had a 32' brigantine, that would easily fit the bill. What I remember of it was it was a pig, just to hold up the rig, which he admitted, but it looked the part.

 

[Skyak]

Any ideas for how to manage all those sails in a boat too small to stand up in?

Even if every sail had single line furling that's an incredible amount of lines.

 

[PAR]

It can be done, but yes it's tough to manage the lines in a small boat.

This is the Federalist and is 15' on deck with a 5' beam, built originally in the early 1800's (this is a reproduction). She sails and is as traditional as it gets. She carries 7 sails, only 2 fore and aft. You can reach up and reef by hand and you can lower the tops from deck by pulling the wedge. Braces and sheets are easily handled, but it is a cramped and complex thing at first glance. There's a few thwarts, but not much room to move around.

All in all a well thought out little ship, but ungodly impractical. If she was slightly larger, say 20', you might have some room to place a cooler full of beer. I'd love to get a commission for something like this, because it has so many issues to figure out.

There are actually groups of folks with interest in these miniature puppies. In England this seems more common, but the USA has it's share. There was this outfit call "little ships", but I haven't heard from them in a few years.

Don't give up your dream, look around - you're not the only nut job ( ) with a vision like this. Go for it.

 

[michael pierzga]

It shouldnt be too difficult. The import details are the shape of the ends, sheer, sailplan and detailing. Anything under the water is not seen so it wont detract from the image of the ship. I would sketch out the important details, estimate its material weight plus a crew or two then hand it to a naval architect for underwater shape.

I believe the term for these boats is ..Man Size Models. War ships are popular but Ive also seen sailing ships. Try Google

 

[Skyak]

It can be done, but yes it's tough to manage the lines in a small boat.


This is the Federalist and is 15' on deck with a 5' beam, built originally in the early 1800's (this is a reproduction). She sails and is as traditional as it gets. She carries 7 sails, only 2 fore and aft. You can reach up and reef by hand and you can lower the tops from deck by pulling the wedge. Braces and sheets are easily handled, but it is a cramped and complex thing at first glance. There's a few thwarts, but not much room to move around.


All in all a well thought out little ship, but ungodly impractical. If she was slightly larger, say 20', you might have some room to place a cooler full of beer. I'd love to get a commission for something like this, because it has so many issues to figure out.


There are actually groups of folks with interest in these miniature puppies. In England this seems more common, but the USA has it's share. There was this outfit call "little ships", but I haven't heard from them in a few years.

Don't give up your dream, look around - you're not the only nut job ( ) with a vision like this. Go for it.

This Federalist is the first tall ship I have seen at this scale that 'works'. It looks bigger than 15 ft. Do you have any idea what the displacement is? Does it have aux. power? Was the original a scale replica or did it have some purpose like education or training?

This would be a major but worthy project he could not do without your knowledge. Maybe your love of the project can help bridge the gap to his budget or expand it. At any rate I would love to see you get this commission.

And in four years, if you can sail the boat upwind out of a lee cove you can give me a well deserved "I TOLD YOU SO".

 

[PAR]

The Federalist was a gift, in the late 1700's and no intent was offered, in regard to training or as a scale version of something. It was commissioned by some businessmen in Baltimore and presented to George Washington, after Maryland signed the constitution. It was sailed by the commodore of the US Navy to Washington in 1788. She was lost in a hurricane about a month later.

This version is a copy based on builder and designer's notes of the era and was given to the state in 1988. She was designed by Mel Smith (Lynx and Kalmar Nyckel designer) and built by Allen Rawl (currently building a colonial Brigantine, previously built the Susan Constant and Kalmar Nyckle).

The Federalist is sail only, being a historically accurate reproduction. I'd guess it displaces a good ton, with built down sections and a wholesome midsection. Her bilges are pretty firm for a boat of this era, understandably, seeing as she's very shoal. I don't remember seeing a board in her, but she does have a false transom, behind which the rudder stock comes up. I haven't seen her since last year when I was in BWI, but I take note of her when I can.

She'd make a good bit of leeway to windward with her underbelly, but I'll bet she can hang on better than you'd think. Her oar locks would probably be helpful at times.

 

[Skyak]

The Federalist was a gift, in the late 1700's and no intent was offered, in regard to training or as a scale version of something. It was commissioned by some businessmen in Baltimore and presented to George Washington, after Maryland signed the constitution. It was sailed by the commodore of the US Navy to Washington in 1788. She was lost in a hurricane about a month later.

This version is a copy based on builder and designer's notes of the era and was given to the state in 1988. She was designed by Mel Smith (Lynx and Kalmar Nyckel designer) and built by Allen Rawl (currently building a colonial Brigantine, previously built the Susan Constant and Kalmar Nyckle).

The Federalist is sail only, being a historically accurate reproduction. I'd guess it displaces a good ton, with built down sections and a wholesome midsection. Her bilges are pretty firm for a boat of this era, understandably, seeing as she's very shoal. I don't remember seeing a board in her, but she does have a false transom, behind which the rudder stock comes up. I haven't seen her since last year when I was in BWI, but I take note of her when I can.

She'd make a good bit of leeway to windward with her underbelly, but I'll bet she can hang on better than you'd think. Her oar locks would probably be helpful at times.

WOW! With that pedigree I bet the original gift would be worth more today than the ship it replicated! I suspected it was a toy for the rich and powerful but I am surprised it went right to the top.

 

[PAR]

You have to remember, in the 1780's Washington was all but a king and very well admired. Most would have done anything for him.

 

[PAR]

20' on deck, 26' LOA, 5' 9" beam, knee deep draft. Stable, easy to build hull with some shape, modest rig with plenty of strings to pull. Benches down each side for string pullers to get comfortable. Masts stow within boat's length.

 

[seasailor55]

I like it Paul. Your designs always seem to so nicely blend character and practicality, especially in small packages. Add some fake gunports, some trim on the stern and topsides and this could get very piratical. Looks like it would be great fun for a scout troop.

There is a festival here every year, during which the "bucaneers" come across the lake by boat, land on the seawall, overpower the local "militia", make the mayor walk the plank, and take over the city for a week. I can't help but think how something like this with potato cannons booming would add to the atmosphere!

Regards

 

[PAR]

I tried to put cannon ports in her, but they looked awful, so I dropped them. The exercise was to pen up a simple hull, that had high initial stability, yet reasonable sailing lines, low RM and enough seating to place a crew, in effective locations for the string pulling stuff. I don't like the two cockpit arrangement, but I had to have mast purchase somewhere. For hard windward work, you could douse the courses and hang a gollywobbler and staysail between the sticks and she should be fairly effective. At 20' on deck, there's enough internal volume for a reasonable crowd of kids, yet keeps the boat manageable at the ramp, on the trailer and fits in a garage. A FNR 5Hp outboard in a well with wheel steering would make her handy enough. Masts with no taper will be in the 25 pound range if Douglas fir, birdsmouth, less then 20 if spruce. If tapered properly, the spruce sticks could be as low as 14 pounds.

I've changed the upper chine, to make placing gun ports aesthetically pleasing. It affects the entry a little, but not objectionably. I've also taken the drag out of the keel and moved some volume aft, so she'd balance.

 

[michael pierzga]

Yah, that looks doable. The style above waterline is good. The underwater profile is easy and cheap the build.

You might review the work of Daniel Bombigher. He Designed many many small craft in the spirit of working ships

http://www.classic-yacht-design.com/3ladies/3-miss-simplette/ms.html

 

[PAR]

I've never seen an easy to build Daniel Bombigher design, particularly for this poster's desires. Jay Benford would be an option, though his plans aren't cheap, they are well thought out and refined.

 

[seasailor55]

I like it even better with the subtle changes. This is exactly what I had in mind when I first started planning our youth sailing program and contacted a local boatyard to see if they had an old hull that I could stick a couple of masts into. They had a 1965 Ensign, and you know the rest of that story.

I still wanted a small square rigger but couldn't find anything that wasn't either too big, too complicated to build, too costly, a ridiculous caricature, or a maintenance nightmare. It's perfect! I really regret that we weren't able to get together when I was in St. Petersburg.

I thought about staysails when I saw the first rendering. I guess I'm one of those people that Phil Bolger talked about: "most people have more fun elaborating". I was thinking upwind work, although I know that the old square riggers could sail to windward with reasonable effectiveness and have documented history of some of the skippers of the huge steel windjammers performing remarkable feats of ship handling - clawing off lee shores and docking under sail alone.

How would you furl the square sails? Brailed against the masts as in Sam Rabl's method on his Polaris brigantine, or lower the yards and handfurl the courses? A short poop deck to mount the wheel? Ballast, a centerboard, or are they needed?