construction plan opinions needed for my proposed boat project

[AnthonyW]

Of possible interest - the famous pirate boats of the Mediterranean - the Xebecs, had lateen sails. Quite menacing looking boats in a fashion. Might be worth a thought. (Lateen sail, not the Xebec...) Not the easiest to rig initially, but goes up wind better than a square rig, it can be loose footed (booms and kids etc....), the mainsheet can be easier for someone slight/small. And doesn't require a jib necessarily. Different but fun and eye catching. If the Canary Island races are anything to go by (they race a class of lateens with tremendous sail area with huge crews), the can perform quite well as a sail set up. Still very popular Croatia side of the world. My 2c but a jolly roger on a lateen sail would look nice to a kid, and the boat would look suitably 'old'. Pictures and stories of Xebecs in the late 18th century wrecking havoc in the Mediteranean might help. Along with a potatoe gun mounting.

And the boat can be made to look a bit more 'traditional' when he hits 11 years old and needs to look 'cooler'.

Loose footed sails have a big appeal when their are little kids on board.

Or for something more menacing looking but functional, a batwing sail was used in the Lord of the Rings ships. Quite easy to get plans off the net. There is an avid user of this site who makes them (or something very similar) for canoes.

 

[Mr Efficiency]

Children have a habit of following their own interests in their own time, odds are pirate ships might be a matter of fleeting interest, if at all !

 

[blsmith29651]

I see you retained the beams up front, so how did you handle the shocks? Is that Evo bolted to a swing axle?

If you go through the build thread you can see the details of the front beam, but in short, I didn't need the upper spring pack since the front is so light. I fabricated two stiff steel bars that run from the outer wheel area to the center. Cut the upper beam and made shock mounts in the center. The whole thing is original and quite frankly questionable how well it will work, but I just went for it. The Harley engine is a 2006 Twin Cam B 88 cubic inches and a stock 75 horse power. Doesn't sound like much, but the 4 cyl. VW engine that it replaced was 36 HP & the roadster weighs almost nothing. I had it out for 3 minutes as a gokart when I first got the engine and frame complete. It is QUICK!

Oh, I forgot to mention the rear. Yes, it is an old swing axle. I would prefer to use an independent rear axle like in the later VW's but this is what I had. There is a kit out there to convert the swing axle transaxle into an independent and I plan to do that at a later date. Right now, after so much build time I just want to get it on the road and in truth it needs a good road test to check out the suspension, brake bias, and fiberglass body. The plan is to get it on the road in primer and drive it for at least a season, maybe a year and see how it holds up. Then, make the necessary alterations like changing the rear and then paint it and call it done.

 

[Skyak]

I want to build a miniature tall ship. I realize, you probably just thought, "Oh, great, another one of those guys," but I am serious and if the consensus here is that I can do this & afford it, then I will build it. One of my other hobbies is writing, so I intend to write a book as I go along for my grandson, but also for anyone who might be interested one day. I can do the writing when my muscles won't let me work on the project.
I would like the boat to accommodate 2-3 adults & 2-3 children say between the ages of 5-10. I believe the appropriate size boat would be in the 14'-16' length. Oh, and the lake I live on has an 18' max length limit so I cannot go over that.

The boat plans get a little tricky. I have a great set of wooden model plans, but I don't know if they count as a functional set of plans. To add to that, it looks like when scaling the boat, at 16' length the boat would be just a touch over 3' wide. I would like to make it wider for stability. I can alter the plans, but have no idea what that would do to the characteristics of the boat. I'm not looking for a sleek, fast, efficient sail boat, as I understand it, a square rigger can be none of those, but I would like it to be stable for safety's sake. I have read here that using an existing boat is cheaper and I'm all for that, but I can't really find anything that closely resembles an old square rigger that is wider in the front and narrow at the back, kind of like a rain drop. Any boat suggestions would be welcome, or if I should get a boat designer suggestions/recommendations would also be welcome. The few I have tried to contact never return my calls or email. Also, is that expensive?
Last, but not least I guess is I plan on auxiliary propulsion in the form of an electric motor. I think probably one of the fishing boat trolling motors would work, but there are other options as well. I think if I could get this boat to the point where I could just putt, putt around the lake with the electric I would consider it a success. Actual sails would be a bonus.

About your search for a base boat, does the jet 14 satisfy your desire for a teardrop shape? SEE PDF It's referred to as 'fish form'. In the old days of simple full keels it was important that the widest beam was toward the bow and the hull tapered narrower toward the transom. This had two positive effects as the boat would heel bow up it was better positioned to ride up waves taking less impact and staying dryer. The second effect was that the keel then has a positive angle of attack relative to the submerged portion of the heeled hull -the keel is pointed the right way to do it's job and the hull is not going sideways through the water. Modern sailboats have gone triangular to get the largest form stability and require far more active control to stay sailing flat and are troublesome through waves because the keel is angled toward the lee rail.

Anyway back to the Jet 14, if it meets your form needs I have a very nice mahogany cold molded boat for sale and you have a big warm shop. If you don't want the fast modern sail rig and do want all the old cool bronze fittings I could cut you a great deal I guarantee you could not match in 4 years with three times the money. See attached plan and pic.

About sailing exertion, there is no need for sailing to take great exertion but most small boats are designed to reward exertion to make sailing more of a 'sport'. Paraplegics race properly designed sailboats safe and fast. All it takes is proper design. Another good example are the mini America's Cup boats. They were tiny scaled down 12 meter models to about 12ft long. The skipper sat down low inside the hull like a kayak but reclining, with all the controls routed to the deck in front of him. The bottom line is sailing can be done at hull speed with very little exertion.

About electric propulsion; there is a great UK site with loads of small classic boats converted to electric power.
http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/members.htm

 

[Tad]

These folks seem to have the right idea, leeway is obviously a problem which could be fixed with a centerboard or daggerboard.

http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkJW7So95YQ

http://www.aqsim.com/littleleon/

Also this thread talks about such things....

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?126922-Sabot-Brigantine-Plans

 

[michael pierzga]

Thats it !!

Little Leon

I did a google search for it but couldnt find the right keywords.

If you have patience googling you will find clubs whose members build man size model ships.

Ive visited their forums in the past and they have info on scaling and construction

I believe the google key word search will be ...Man Size Model ships.

 

[Stephen Ditmore]

Here are some designer's websites you might be interested in:
http://www.thomasecolvin.com/
http://www.benford.us/
http://www.parker-marine.com/

And here are some specific designs I'd call your attention to on the WoodenBoat website:
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/28-sharpie-egret
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/22-11-yawl-blue-moon
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/discrete-ryd-1411
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/cape-cutter-19
There was a very interesting small schooner for which plans were available from WoodenBoat for a while, but I can't find it on their website now. Pretty sure the designer / original builder is now deceased.

 

[Elite_Designs]

My project

A 10 foot mold I just built

 

[Stephen Ditmore]

I've considered how to build a mini-ship before. My thought is to obtain a dated fiberglass lifeboat complete with auilliary engine, build wood topsides from gunwale up, then deck and ballast it.

But in the end I think I'd go for a light displacement sharpie like Egret instead.

 

[SamSam]

A 10 foot mold I just built

I don't understand how this will work, it would seem you'll get a hull with huge cavities where the seats are. If it's a liner, the wrong side will be smooth.

It probably needs it's own thread also, unless it has something to do with the original post.

 

[blsmith29651]

These folks seem to have the right idea, leeway is obviously a problem which could be fixed with a centerboard or daggerboard.

http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkJW7So95YQ

http://www.aqsim.com/littleleon/

Also this thread talks about such things....

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?126922-Sabot-Brigantine-Plans

Thanks for the info, the Little Leon is pretty cool. When I thought my idea was dead awhile ago, I stumbled upon the Little Leon wedsite and that revived the idea. One thing I did notice, was how small the square sails are. From the dialogue here, maybe that is something determined by the scaling issues. If you compare the side-by-side pictures you can see what I mean. The water ballast was an innovative idea, but it looked cumbersome to operate and the boat seemed very unstable until the tanks were filled. I like the idea of outward protruding fins, weighted to control the lean of the boat. I think if the weights were movable (in and out) the lean of the boat could be adjusted for a vast degree of conditions. Oh, and the wooden boat thread has some great ideas and discussion the terms, although I'm sure correct, are a little difficult for me to understand, but I think I got the general idea. Talk about the side fins I mentioned I got from the tread. I also was interested in the Federalist, a small square rigger. I've actually seen the new one at the Baltimore Airport. I used to live in Maryland. Perhaps it's basic design could be used to build one the size I have in mind since it was a functional boat. It sailed down the Chesapeake Bay and up the Potomac river to Mount Vernon. If it could do that, it certainly could sail in the 800 lake I live on. Thanks for the info!

 

[blsmith29651]

Here are some designer's websites you might be interested in:
http://www.thomasecolvin.com/
http://www.benford.us/
http://www.parker-marine.com/

And here are some specific designs I'd call your attention to on the WoodenBoat website:
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/28-sharpie-egret
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/22-11-yawl-blue-moon
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/discrete-ryd-1411
http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/cape-cutter-19
There was a very interesting small schooner for which plans were available from WoodenBoat for a while, but I can't find it on their website now. Pretty sure the designer / original builder is now deceased.

Thanks so much for the links! Makes for very interesting viewing & reading. There are so many more options out there than I ever imagined.

 

[PAR]

A little bigger than you want, but . . .

 

[HakimKlunker]

In that regard, is sailing very difficult physically?

Hi, your idea is interesting, but you seem to be a little inexperienced on the water. I would suggest to try regular sailing first; maybe as a guest or by attending a (practical) course. You may find that you hate it, or you may find that a different type of boat suits you much better.

 

[El_Guero]

If you go through the build thread you can see the details of the front beam, but in short, I didn't need the upper spring pack since the front is so light. I fabricated two stiff steel bars that run from the outer wheel area to the center. Cut the upper beam and made shock mounts in the center. The whole thing is original and quite frankly questionable how well it will work, but I just went for it. The Harley engine is a 2006 Twin Cam B 88 cubic inches and a stock 75 horse power. Doesn't sound like much, but the 4 cyl. VW engine that it replaced was 36 HP & the roadster weighs almost nothing. I had it out for 3 minutes as a gokart when I first got the engine and frame complete. It is QUICK!

Oh, I forgot to mention the rear. Yes, it is an old swing axle. I would prefer to use an independent rear axle like in the later VW's but this is what I had. There is a kit out there to convert the swing axle transaxle into an independent and I plan to do that at a later date. Right now, after so much build time I just want to get it on the road and in truth it needs a good road test to check out the suspension, brake bias, and fiberglass body. The plan is to get it on the road in primer and drive it for at least a season, maybe a year and see how it holds up. Then, make the necessary alterations like changing the rear and then paint it and call it done.

Corvette rear assemblies are excellent ... if you go with the older design, let me know, I will tell you the 'dreaded corvette rear axle nightmare,' and how to keep from experiencing it.