Concrete Canvas Junk Voyager - design and assistance

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Magus, Jul 24, 2016.

  1. tane
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Location: austria

    tane Junior Member

    "...specialized elitists..."
    sure, medical doctors, engineers, scientists, you name them: ignorant idiots we can do without...!
    (seems you are not sticking so very closely to this principles, as you wouldn't be around...or did you never need the expertise of one of those "specialized elitist" medical drs? I bet your very earthly existance started with a gynecologist...)
     
  2. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "Because my specifications are so out of their specialization,"

    Please list your specifications that are so unusual.
     
  3. kerosene
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    $10,000
     
  4. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    Another cry baby that has a tantrum because he can't engineer a new construction method and build a 40 foot ocean going sailboat for $10,000.
     
  5. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

    Ocean going is easy.

    Ocean surviving ... less so.
     
  6. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    I wonder why people want such large boats, a well equipped 26-33 footer is a great single handler and much cheaper than a 40 footer. You can buy a used one for 5000-10000 and fix it up.
     
  7. cmckesson
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver BC

    cmckesson Naval Architect

    You asked for a list of $ystems that must be included in your ocean going vessel. You listed such items as a depth sounder and charts. To this list I add:

    Masts & booms
    Standing rigging
    Chainplates
    Running Rigging
    Mechanical propulsion (engine, shaft, gearbox, bearings, stern tube, propeller)
    Fuel system (tank, pumps, filters, fillers)
    Engine cooling system (depends on engine)
    Bilge ventilation system (depends on engine)
    Battery banks
    high current bus transfer switch
    Overcurrent protection
    Electrical distribution system
    battery charging system
    battery maintenance system (bottle of distilled water?)
    Navigation lights as required by law
    Domestic lights to suit SOR
    Potable water system (tanks, pumps, piping, 'faucets', filters, filler)
    Domestic seawater system (pumps, piping, faucets)
    Grey water discharge system (thru hull fittings, valves, piping)
    Black water system (tanks, piping, valves, pumps (optional), thru hull fittings)
    Joinery (cabinets, lockers, book shelves, bunks.)
    Windows and hatches
    Joiner doors
    Outfitting (toilets, sinks, tables, cushions, curtains, carpets)
    Decorative joinery (Teak and holly cabin sole, formica counter top, etc., optional)

    Not a complete list, but something to help you pass the time in thumbing through a chandler's catalog.

    All the best,

    Chris McKesson
     
  8. serow
    Joined: Mar 2016
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    Location: UK

    serow Junior Member

  9. Magus
    Joined: Jul 2016
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    Location: TX

    Magus Junior Member

    I thought being honest would have been a good policy, seeing as what I was asking for was for people to help me accumulate that knowledge. I guess that was lost in translation somewhere?

    I'm not saying specialized people are elitist, I'm saying those who would rather sit around with their martinis watching a novice make a spectacle of himself, hoping it to be a fantastic failure, rather than assist with their knowledge to help make it a success, are elitists. Those who think, by reason of their education, that a novice should have no right to succeed, and so build their hopelessly, needlessly complicated, contraptions in order to prevent him from being able to access the same capabilities without paying into their elite club, or buying from them.

    Also, I was not saying the project of the spruce goose was harebrained in execution, I was saying that it was a harebrained scheme in the eyes of those on the outside looking in. Which is where you stand currently.

    Sure. :p
    Ever heard of the Montgolfier brothers?
    I suppose you'd probably consider it terrible heresy to the engineering profession to build an aerial craft out of mostly just paper. Everything needs to start somewhere though.

    And I can't seek the benefit of your knowledge? It is your fixation on "doing it the right way" that makes me see you as elitist. I'm a novice so I don't deserve to get any short cuts, right?

    Oh, kinda like this guy? Not a "highway," but still.

    Yes, I would consider it. I would probably use wood for this application though, for weight reasons.

    And it's not about my driving, it's about that of everyone else on the road. The statistics are horrible.

    Well, I'm at least 6 months out from actually starting anything major. I hoped that would be a good amount of time to get my feet wet learning from you guys a few tricks to help me along. Seeing as few are actually willing to assist though... Nothing would make me happier than to prove the naysayers wrong, but that will take time. In the meanwhile, perhaps the willing could help guide me to completion faster.

    This was supposed to be a malleable concept, according to the guidance I got here in achieving it. I had a few parameters, and together we all figure out how to make it work. Disregarding a material, or a parameter, or the idea itself, doesn't help the design, but guidance on how to use a material best does.

    At the moment, theory is what I'm interested in, so that when I start with the materials, I make fewer mistakes.

    Tribespeople and ancient peoples never had dentists, engineers, pharmaceutical companies, or gynecologists (whatever those are). And some are still in survival today.. They don't use engineers to build their houses and canoes, or specialized farmers to raise their crops and animals. The closest they have to a specialization are shamans/witch doctors or chieftains. They have a collective sense and knowledge.

    As for myself, it doesn't require a specialist to set a broken bone or prescribe pain medicine, though both have been used. The only specialized doctor I use is a chiropractor, beyond that I've not needed real specialized attention in over a decade.

    40 foot is my ideal, as I like my space and traditional look. But I'm Ok with whatever length works.
     
  10. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    The Montgolphier balloon was built under the sponsorship of the King of France. They had ample funds, which you don't. The project is not impossible, but the budget is ridiculous. You can get a 25-27 footer in good condition for that money and go sailing. See if you can handle it in rough weather. I am professional sailor, commercial fisherman and shipwright. It sounds really arrogant when you look down your nose at experienced seamen from your armchair. Go out to sea and then you will earn respect.
     
  11. serow
    Joined: Mar 2016
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    Location: UK

    serow Junior Member

    Gonzo this fellow is a wind up merchant. You're wasting your time . Apparently ancient tribes never had dentists FFS.
     
  12. kerosene
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    I found it amusing and laughed but I thought that you were joking until I revisited the 1st post. Oh dear. I think someone is pulling some legs.
     
  13. M&M Ovenden
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Ottawa

    M&M Ovenden Senior Member

    Doing it the right way is also doing it the safe way. Standards are built on the deaths of others.

    Members of this board have been very helpful with our boat building project.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     

  14. cmckesson
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Vancouver BC

    cmckesson Naval Architect

    I understand your point, and I welcome the opportunity to provide you with such 'wisdom' as has been collected over decades of experience in ship and boat design.

    Indeed, I personally have recently changed my career away from actually designing ships to where now I spend 100% of my time passing that information to novices. Not alone of course, but in teamwork with other experienced professionals. And our team is not alone in this practice - there are several other similar "help the novices" teams in other places.

    Over years of practice a format for this sort of help has evolved, that appears to offer the most efficient information transfer in the least amount of time. There may be better modes, but we haven't found them.

    In our case this information transfer involves a four year degree in engineering, followed by a one-year specialized training in the application of engineering to ship and boat design and construction.

    We have not found a more intensive (i.e. faster) mode than this practice of five years of full time study. I do know of many successful boat builders who did not take as much, or even any full time study. But in all of those cases I think you will find that they took much more than five years to attain an equal level of knowledge.
     
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