commercial/military design vs. recreational?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by patonola46, Mar 15, 2007.

  1. patonola46
    Joined: Mar 2007
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    patonola46 New Member

    Hey guys,

    I am a naval architecture/marine engineering student and I am writing an analysis paper about the "writing" involved during the design process..including anything from emails to detailed reports. I am trying to investigate the differences in writing (amount, types, formality, etc) between a military or commercial design and a recreational yacht or boat design. Has anyone out there experienced both types of industries? I have some info on the writing for a military design, so comments about the recreational industry would be ideal...Any info would be appreciated! Thanks!
     
  2. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    What do you mean by "recreational"? Are you talking mass production comodity or spec building or purpose built or contracted? All different.
     
  3. stonebreaker
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    stonebreaker Senior Member

    I used to work at Naval Sea Systems Command, the branch of the navy responsible for aquisitioning everything from toilet paper to aircraft carriers. The standing joke was that if you piled all the paperwork (contract, plans, blueprints, diagrams) required to create an American aircraft carrier on its deck, it would sink. This was only half a joke since it's a fact that the cost of the paperwork alone was nearly 50% of the total cost of the ship.
     
  4. patonola46
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    patonola46 New Member

    thanks stonebreaker for the insight

    jehardiman....i apologize for being so vague...what I meant by recreational is custom, privately owned yacht or boat that would be designed and built by one company or have the design contracted out to a design firm and built elsewhere
     
  5. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Few yachts are built to the scantlings required by the military , and full stability analysis is seldom required except by the military.

    FF
     
  6. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    I worked on the UK CVF (Future Aircraft Carrier) project for a while. A military vessel is not just the nav arch and marine eng side of things, but combat systems, systems architecture etc etc etc. The amount of paperwork produced is simply enourmous. Regular meetings with the many stakeholders (lots and lots of them), design disclosure documents which describe and justify every aspect of the design, stability booklets, policy documents, interpreting classification society rules, blah blah blah. The design has not begun to be constructed yet (the first ship won't be in service until 2015) and already there is a mountain of paper.
    Partially this is because there are so many more people involved in the design, and in ensuring its adequacy and who have a vested interest in the outcome. Designing a warship is big business and has all the beauracracy that goes with that.
    Recreational craft are designed by far smaller teams, have far fewer stakeholders and hardly any QA requirements.
     
  7. tri - star
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    tri - star Junior Member

    Two real life stories:

    An Ice Breaker - that after many, man/years of mountainous
    paper work - sank out of site. Before it was even built !
    Most govs. will only last 3 to 5 yrs......
    The design process, on this ship was halted, when political
    concerns changed.

    I have designed boats that have been in service over 25 yrs.
    With no more than 3 pieces of paper. Often...
    i.e.
    ( 1.) The proverbial sketch, on a pub napkin.
    ( 2.) Lines.
    ( 3.) GA { General Arrangement )

    In fact, if required, I am up to the challange:
    To build a boat with no plans, or paperwork, at all.
    As are many trad. boat builders around the world.

    More than once, I've seen a couple of guys build a dory,
    with no drawings.
    In a few hours. - And then row said dory to First place.
    In build/race competitions.

    As I am often the Project Man. and / or builder, with my various
    projects. There is no need to send myself; memos or E - mails.

    You can see a trend here:
    Competent boat guys use as little paper as poss.
    Whereas; governmental agencies, thrive on the generation of paper.

    Cheers !
     
  8. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    As with most others, I concur that a governmental project requires a mountian of paperwork. However, all in the recrational world is not as rosey as tri-star paints it.

    For a yacht sized documented vessel I expect the following paperwork

    1) 8-10 page Contract-all the legal stuff about who and what gets paid and delivered.
    2) 1 sheet of Principal Design Requirements - length, beam, displacement, speed, etc.
    3) 5-15 sheets of specific Contract Specifications - the spec sheet for the engine, electrical, staterooms, fit and finish, etc
    4) At least 4 10-12 page weight studies - preliminary, contract, during construction at major milestones, final
    5) At least 4 5-10 page cost studies - preliminary, contract, during construction at major milestones, final
    6) a calculation binder(s) that have all the supporting engineering calculations 300+ sheets
    7) 10+ Sheets of plans

    A lot of above depends on the size and complexity of the contract, generally exponential with the length.
    7)
     
  9. patonola46
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    patonola46 New Member

    Thanks so much for the information everyone! I definitely appreciate the help so far.
     
  10. safewalrus
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    safewalrus Ancient Marriner

    PI are those the aircraft carriers that we have little or no chance of getting? Just pure fantasy to con a few admirals? Primarily designed to splurgh out paperwork as a bull**** exercise!
     
  11. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    How very cynical Walrus ;)

    Its probably best I bite my lip on the topic of CVF!
     
  12. RANCHI OTTO
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    RANCHI OTTO Naval Architect

    I have designed both military and pleasure boats.

    Same hull lines, same engines plant, same speed, same Classification approuved structure...but....but...

    For me the main differences are that for the military boats there are required some additional points very hard to be reached...for example the noise, the vibrations and the temperature in the wheelhouse and cabins in tropical conditions.

    High penalties are in the contract for :

    / speed (not less than 1.5 knots otherwise the client has the possibily to refuse the boats)

    / range
    / noise
    / vibrations (sometimes)

    For pleasure boats......:D
     

  13. tri - star
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    tri - star Junior Member

    Statisticly Irrelevent

    To jehardiman,

    Re: ".......as rosey..."
    I hasten to correct any impression - that there is much joy left
    in the process of designing boats - for me, anymore.

    Also, there has been times when we have been forced, to attempt,
    to approach the level of diligence - that is customery with yourself.

    However, like PI Design, we have also experienced the procedures
    involved with large institutions.......

    Perhaps, if we put it in more simplistic terms:
    Even at worst; the paper work involved for designing a yacht will
    weigh very little.
    Light enough to be carried easily, in one hand.
    Whereas; a large truck - or trucks, will be required to carry the
    paper generated for situations, like the Icebreaker project.

    OTTO, more briefly - indicates, with one of those smilie things
    - that this is also similer to his experience.

    When professional surveys are published - they always includ
    a statement: " Accurate within _ % Plus or Minus."
    Another common term is: " Statisticaly irrelavent."

    I put it to you. That we as a group, seem to have a consensus.
    That patanola 46 has a project, that has so little " weight " on
    one side, that discussion - soon becomes mute.
    - And the answer, becomes self evident.

    ' Regards.
     
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