Commercial Fishing Sailboat

Sounds good. I spent some time working in a small shipyard in Okinawa and am quite familiar with the long liners and small to medium F/Vs they use, their excellent seakeeping qualities, ability to catch fish and the wide use of blast freezing the catch immediately for a very superior and expensive product. Though remember this price is based on cheap air shipping to high value markets because local markets are quickly saturated.
There is no substitute for your experience at sea in the targeted fishery in designing this interesting vessel and you are fortunate in the flexibility your governmental system allows you in exploring this.
I think I understand your trolling practices now but still have reservations about fishing under sail. The rig seems inadequate in size to drag that many lines at the proper speed unless the wind is pretty strong and fair, so the engine may still be necessary most of the time, though at lower loading and fuel consumption.
One issue I have is your rather cavalier attitude about rig loadings and sail handling, as a mast is not a clothesline pole and I encourage you to get some serious sea time on a large pure sailing vessel under all conditions to better appreciate the various problems associated with large sails and masts with the various ways and places they can fail, if not catastrophically then expensively, as in chafe.
I have seen some very large and expensive, well-engineered masts crumple like tinfoil as the loadings are very complex in reality.
As well thought-out and interesting as your ideas are, sailboats have been under development for a very long time and most things that work have been tried, so, don't forget the three rules of boats:
1. Don't be stupid.
2. **** happens.
3. Bring beer.
I encourage you to build a small development working model, maybe 4 feet long, to actually work out in 3-d the run of sails, lines and gear, and to test the shape for balance under sail.
Remember that sailing requires a much larger rudder than powering unless balance is perfect, which is rare or never, and a model is an incredibly powerful design tool that makes obvious things that are not when viewed in 2d on paper. If you want to sell an idea to others, it is also a great help, as they can see and hold something that actually works, not a drawing.
BATAAN

 

I enjoyed your summary of the world situation too. I even think it is presently much worst than this in fact but that was a pretty good breakdown of past and present, thanks.
My rig is only sail assist and main engine power will be used at all times, maybe the occasional day or three that it would be nice to shut everything down and think that all the fish caught those days was free of diesel cost!
So if you think more like that then it is more about reducing engine load / maintenance / noise and diesel used per trip. This is what it is all about rather than ' caught under sail' BUT of course for public perception then it is all caught under sail so hence a premium price per landed KG, yes?
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I just loved!! All true, fantastic!

As to wanting to get sea time on pure sailing vessels for ' experience ' Not on your nellie there with that one. ie ' Bugger that!
Maybe this 29 meter vessel is the ' model ' here and the next one might be 100 meter length?

 

I am afraid "caught under sail" equates to novelty product and will very marginally increase sales, if at all.
Fish is food, not a status item, and people will always go for best value at lowest price. Blast frozen fish carefully handled demands the premium, not caught under sail, which is basically a lie.
A processor will not give you a premium as he cannot pass the increased price on in the competitive world wide market.
If you develop your own distribution company you may be able to sell this fantasy world wide and actually get more money, but I don't think it's a sound business model.
A local fisherman here in my small town in the Pacific NW has for many years blast frozen his own troll-caught salmon, bought carefully handled fish from others and packaged and distributed all of it himself under his own label as being consistently superior, and it is.
He has a couple of local ladies who ride bicycles towing 200 pound ice chests delivering his salmon to all the local restaurants and a truck for further markets, and the usual air freight connections at our small international airport.
A model is a very very cheap place to study the infinite varieties of expression of rule #2 under the guidance of rule #1, assisted by rule #3.
Finding something you overlooked in your enthusiasm in a 29 meter model has more lasting consequences than in a 1.5 meter model.

 

Doesn't matter what I believe, I was only inquiring whether NZ fishermen have to contend with the type of regulation we have......and I see they do.....It's called Maritime Rules Part 40D - Design, Construction and Equipment Fishing Ships.... http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Rules/Rule-documents/Part40D-maritime-rule.pdf

Pretty extensive rules.......interestingly they mandate visibility from the pilothouse amongst many other things, the stability requirements seem to be similar to ours but these don't include damaged stability, as we do for all commercial vessels over 15 registered tons.

I found the licensing/quota system in NZ very interesting. Anybody can go commercial fishing with a inexpensive vessel license (perhaps a personal one as well?) and some purchased quota. From what I understand the quota is all held by the public and sold through brokers each year....I can't make out how it's allocated though...is it first comers...caps....sealed bids???

Anyway very different than our system where licenses are privately held and bought, sold, or leased in private market deals. Licenses are species and vessel length specific though some can be combined. Some licenses have vessel quota attached, others are for a specific fishery which is regulated (allowable catch and opening time)by the Federal Gov.

Kanfish....no full load displacement and max righting moment?

 

The 29 meter ' model ' was a bit tongue in cheek flippant comment as previous.
Yes I do have my Maritime rules part 40D effective 30 July 2009 too for reference and also good contacts personally within and there is nothing that phases me that has been included or left out to cause any concern here.
View from the Pilot house will be 360 degree on the vessel just as a matter course.
The NZ quota system is too much to get into but basicly fish species ' quota ' can be bought and sold through liecenced brokers and can be caught or leased as a property right. Individuals or companies, restrictions on overseas paticipation though.

 

Fish is very much a status item.
As is steak, lobster and many other 'foods'.
Been too busy fishing to follow the thread much, one of our boats went down with 3, another reminder that at the end of the day youre going to be in a small boat in a big ocean, which is scary enough with big motors and wide beams.
Looked at a few large sailboats, and had a question about test loading.
With the tanks yet to be fabricated, how much could you tell from test loading a 65-70' sailboat, say with sandbags or concrete? Would you be able to get enough information to run numbers, or would the load need to be close to exactly where it will be on the finished vessel?
I know it all depends, but amateurs think tactics, professionals think logistics. A study of boat design might be in my future but it will depend on the logistics.
Thank yall for an informative thread.

 

MICK T what engine and hull dimensions would your ideal boat have

 

Mick,

I'm sorry I don't understand exactly what question the "test loading" you are asking about is supposed to answer?

The main physical testing done today is the "inclining experiment" which is a static (tied to the dock) heeling test done with known weights to establish actual vertical center of gravity.

The real displacement of a vessel is established by measuring the specific gravity of the fluid she's floating in and taking freeboard measurements. Then you go back to the lines drawing or computer model and calculate volume at that flotation.

Those measurements, plus the computer hull model, can provide all heeling, stability, and loading information. With the hull model in my hydrostatics program I can place a weight anywhere on the boat and record all flotation and stability effects.

 

Just wondering how much sail can you carry and still meet the stability requirements? Full sail? None?

 

Oh dear! My instincts to be slightly ' defensive ' with you Tad, sorry, seem to be justified with a question like that but I will answer just for fun.
So, how hard is the wind blowing and from which point relative to the hull direction?
AHH! That does not matter much anyway, just kidding! Going back a bit I said a fifteen degree heel angle would be too much and I would be reducing sail! With two fourteen meter trolling poles out,and working, that means one is up and the other getting too close to the sea surface so in many ways it all comes back to seamanship and common sense and catching fish!
I am well aware that there is windage in the super structure side on and I have programmed my ' ring piece ' warning system to take account of this.
Now as to sail area, there is only 40 sq m in the mizzen and with severe wind flow effect to the lower portion of the sail due to the super structure with the wind forward of the beam then the c of e is pretty low. Same low c of e with the No 2 headsail then reef that down to make a No 3 as with the mizzen too and you would have five eights of not very much sail BUT still have the bennifit of A the roll damping and also a little drive forward again reducing engine load. The No 2 head sail is only seventy sq m.

So, the variables are there to work the vessel and now if I have one hundred tons of blast frozen Albacore tuna on board contributing to the ballast too can I please crack full sail on and the Genny as well on the home run?

 

You might look at Devlin's kokoanee 36 as a starting point as it was developed for fishing. The oysta 42 and 52 might also be good base hulls for a comerical fishing sailboat. rick

 

Well.....That's what I was asking.....can you?

Sorry, no need to be defensive, you don't have to answer....tell me to take off......I was just wondering if you had looked at sailing vs stability requirements...

When approached for any design one of my first questions is what are the applicable regulations and how do we meet or exceed them? Right now I'm struggling with this (commercial sailing vessels) on several projects. Trying to achieve a reasonable balance between meeting the required stability minimums and providing enough sail area to be useful. I can't just say to Transport Canada, "Oh the crew will reduce sail", everything must be substantiated. In this case the stability book must show which sails are set in how much wind and at what point sail is reduced. Yes, I feel like a fool telling the skipper's how to sail the boat but that is the regulation.

There's a great book on sailing vessel accidents called Tall Ships Down, by Daniel S. Parrott, Captain of the Pride of Baltimore II. I highly recommend it to anyone designing, building, or sailing a larger sailing vessel.

 

Grand Banks Fishing Schooners

I guess the modern day regulations would never have allowed those big fishing schooners that worked the Grand Banks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWUD_r6E4U8

Images

What a shame that the Grand Banks is virtually fished out. The photos of those huge catches and the boats is really awe inspiring. I visited that museum in Nova Scotia.

 

The fast market schooners of the 1870s were flat floored light wind flyers that were death traps. Designers noticed and developed something better and the later ones from the 1890s on, like the L.A. DUNTON preserved at Mystic Seaport, were some of the best commercial designs ever for safety, seaworthiness and speed.
Captain, actor and author Sterling Hayden, crew during the schooner races in the early 30s, told me that there was "nothing on earth to compare with being at the masthead of a 120' schooner going very fast in a big sea", and this was a guy who went to the top in Hollywood so he had something to compare it to.

 

Well......the fire regulations alone don't allow for a wooden vessel......