Commercial Fishing Sailboat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by MickT, Nov 14, 2010.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, thanks for confirming you have no idea about the skysails system! And even better, proving that with these comments!

    all solved, or is not a real problem......but you are too lazy to get familiar with the technology, are you?

    Maersk operates carriers above 2500 TEU exclusively, there is no such system on the market for that size craft at present.
    But Beluga shipping is at least as professional as Maersk if not better and they are part of the company.

    And yes, I have a great deal of real time experience with the system, you got that right.

    I do not dream about such technology for smaller craft, it is on the market. Just the size and price tag has to come down further. For a 30 meter boat one can buy it off the shelve.
     
  2. Cattledog
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Seattle / Tucson

    Cattledog Junior Member

    Beluga installed it on one boat in 2008 and per their website it "exploded" somewhere in the sky. I could not find anything else about it on their website since. Soooooo, one might come to the conclusion that they MAY have abandoned the project. Hmmmm.

    But you win! And your written English is really rather good too. And you have a very nice boat.

    And my guess is that your knowledge and passion about the product means you work for the company? I also noticed you ignored my current product suggestion which is probably 1/10 of what the company sells them for?

    I love kites. I fly kites off my boat. I know how to set parafoils up to self ocilate off the bow so I can watch them and it makes me smile. However, I just don't think they are practical for a commericial fishing operation.

    But you win!
     
  3. Cattledog
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Seattle / Tucson

    Cattledog Junior Member

    Now, can we please pick a hull design for Mick? I am thinking schooner.
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Beluga shipping has installed several, successfully working systems. As well have other German shipping companies.
    And the Germans are the largest shipping operators in the entire world. All dumb yeah?

    If these systems would work in the required application is a different basket of fish, and I personally cannot comment on that. I don´t know that business (as you don´t).
    But I know how a electronically controlled kite works, YOU do not.

    Anyway, have a nice Christmas eve and enjoy kiting (manually)

    Richard
     
  5. bulk-head
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Antigua

    bulk-head Junior Member

    If you're interested in Kite power to add efficiency to the vessel, rather than getting bogged down in APEX's insult laden, know it all approach...contact Anne QUÉMÉRÉ and the designers of her system. She has vast experience with transoceanic kite powered craft.
     

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  6. MickT
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: New Orleans

    MickT Junior Member

    I have been busy blowing aluminum boogers out of nose, sorry to stay away from the conversation. Some good stuff here.
    A couple points-
    1. On the economic aspect, the point is that there is plenty of fish in the sea....thousands of miles from the folks that will pay good money for it. This has always been commercial fishings problem. If a sailing rig can take me there from here, I cant see the maintenance being higher than that much fuel. Could be wrong though.
    2. Sail assisted- Please start another thread. That would be a good one.
    3. New construction is probably out. There are too many hulls that could be modified to suit my purposes, abandoned because of a few rotten plates.
    I'm really interested in water/fuel ballast. There seems to be almost nobody with experience in this in cargo applications, only racing, to which the consensus seems to be it doesnt work well. If anyone has any links/thoughts about this please share them.
    Thank you again for all your help, and have fun with your kites and whatnot.
     
  7. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

  8. Kanfish
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Northland , New Zealand

    Kanfish Kansai Fishing Company

    This is about where I logged in originally with my five cents worth for MickT.
    No 1 ; There is plenty of fish in the Ocean and always will be. Every second of every day there are fish spoofing by the mega millions and there has and will always be fishermen to ' Harvest ' them in due course. So three cheers for that I say.
    No 2; and No 3 ; The sail assisted Offshore tuna troller I bought to your attention seemed to cover most of what was being asked for originally in hold capacity, ease of sailing and general handling and fishing. The Tuna trolling was my main focus as a fishing method for this unit but drop linning and even tuna poling are considerations and would be fine. I can set these units up in trolling mode that would out fish a lot of surface line vessels and consequently save all the considerable bait costs and LONG hours working line gear.
    This vessel is fuel ballasted in the keel. The widest part of the keel cord is 800 mm wide and has the capacity for minium of 6.5 ton of diesel. Couple that with a 35 mm bottom steel plate and 12 mm sides plus internal 12 mm baffles there is enough weight here for the low powered rig as a combination set up. Every kg of fish that finds its way down into the fish room off the aft catching deck becomes ballast as the fuel level drops so remains within a reasonable stability range. The recommended twin engine, four cylinder, eight litre, Dong Feng marine engines plus same gen set engine are part of the ballast system AND fishing trolling system too. ie; 1500 max rpm on 3;1 gear is ideal for trolling harmonics for Tuna. Twin engine for manourverability etc as well
    This vessel has a fuel capacity of around thirty ton before you even get into the fuel in the keel tank. The max the 4135 engines can each use is around 13.5 lph under full load and full revs so there is quiet some range avaliable.
    This wide based keel and solid bottom plate will allow for beach careening for underwater maintenance too with confidence between tides too as part of my thinking for this vessel working in remote areas with little or no facilities ashore.
    I have even ' hinged ' the mast for maintenance for you too so the upper section can be lowered down to the fore deck.( Those dotted green lines will show you many things if you can work them out. ) The super structure is carrying much of the ' Mast ' load hence I have been able to eliminate the total side rigging nuisance as in most other yacht fishing vessels yet drawn.
    Mick, I have even given you sun and rain cover over the aft catching deck, I have given you full vision at all times of trolling lures and lines AND the height advantage looking down to see weed fouling etc of any lure at any time or any other hang up.
    As to some of the cargo applications and fuel ballast I have added to this vessels range of possible areas of expertise as a viable unit just this week in my web site ie Offshore Tuna Trolling - Ocean Cruising - Charter Work - Coastal Tourism - Inter Island Coastal Trading.
    I have even given some thought to ' Pirate proofing ' of the super structure so access is very difficult to gain from the outside in for working in remote areas. New Zealand is very well developed with electric fence units to liven up say the hand rails etc as just one aspect of this thinking.
    With all this said at present I will expect to be enjoying numerous inquiry,s and selling sets of study prints ( laminated ) by the hundreds any day now and with say these superb units being built in batches of five at a time, right?
    Stay cool, don,t get too excited!
     
  9. Kanfish
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Northland , New Zealand

    Kanfish Kansai Fishing Company

    I forgot to say about ' modifying ' hulls to suit as suggested which is exactly why I made the effort to develop a ' specialized vessel ' fit for purpose. instead of making a hard job harder by having a totally unsuitable base from which to start in the first instance. I have never yet been on a vessel that really worked ' fit for purpose ' and that was much frustration at the stupidity of the whole in sum.
    I just had my first monthly anyilitics come in for a complete month since the new web site went up and I am chuffed just quietly. ie; 367 visits and 661 pages read so thanks design forum member and others . I am ready for any comments that may result AND to know if MickT might just be interested Too?
     
  10. MickT
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: New Orleans

    MickT Junior Member

    Kanfish-Its a great boat. Not for me. I would guess it might be a little while before theyre getting built 5 at a time, give some time for fuel prices to go up again. Looks like a great troller.
     
  11. Robbo
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    Location: WA

    Robbo Junior Member

    how true this is.

    And the reality that I have observed during 10 years of longlining, is that the fuel used in actually steaming to port (as opposed to steaming up and down shooting and retrieving) is a minor part of the cost.

    Im not posting this to disuade the OP, we need people to pursue the "outer edges" of technology.
    But personally I believe that if the world needs to return to sailing for its freight and transport needs, there are going to be bigger things in our world to worry about.
    I think it is likely to be a scientist who can solve this dilemma rather than a crusty old seadog such as myself or others here.
     
  12. JRMacGregor
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    Location: Scotland, UK

    JRMacGregor Junior Member

    Water ballast is the only form of ballast used by large commercial cargo ships - tankers, bulk carriers, container ships etc. Up to 100,000 tonnes in some cases.

    It works fine. However, in a steel ship the WB tanks are the part of the structure that requires the best quality paint coating and cathodic protection to resist corrosion - but thiis is a well known basic technology.

    However, these vessels change their cargo/ballast distribution in harbour and the weight change during the voyage (due to fuel consumption) is a small part of the vessel displacement (total weight).

    As you well know a fishing vessel loads its cargo at sea in an unpredictable manner. Ideally of course you replace fuel consumed with fish caught, but it does not always work like that. Sometimes you might come home late, empty of fuel and fish, and sometimes you may come home early with a full hold and a lot of fuel remaining.

    For the small size of vessel discussed here the desired weight of fuel and cargo (fish) is a large proportion of the vessel displacement (which is what drove my initial comments about necessary vessel dimensions).

    Water ballast can be a good way of compensating for consumption of fuel and ice (if not replaced by fish) on this design - in order to maintain good draught and trim. It can help keep the centre of gravity in the right place if the tanks are at the same height as the fish room or fuel tanlks.

    Without water ballast compensation you basically have three choices when designing a small vessel to carry a large variable load;
    a) have a "small" vessel that will float in good trim when light or half loaded, but be like a sluggish half tide rock when fully loaded (not easy to make safe or to sail well)
    b) have a "larger" vessel that floats at a good draught/trim when fully loaded, but is light and perhaps lively when light - water ballast can help this vessel
    c) make the ship even bigger so that the variable load makes little practical difference to the draught/trim/freeboard - here the size is the "alternative" to water ballast

    In my opinion these considerations are more important for a sail assisted fishing vessel than for a pure motor fishing vessel for at least two reasons;
    1) the motor boat can be (and for last 20 years usually has been) overpowered to compensate for extra drag of the sluggish fully loaded hull
    2) the sail assisted boat will need better stability to stand up to the heeling moment from the rig, so early immersion of the deck edge on a wide beam low freeboard boat which might be acceptable on a motor boat could be dangerous on the sail assisted version

    Some solid ballast is likely to be needed even if you have water ballast.

    That is simplifying things a bit but I am sure you get the drift.
     
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  13. cthippo
    Joined: Sep 2010
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    Location: Bellingham WA

    cthippo Senior Member

    The other thought is to keep your hold flooded at all times and as you add fish they displace water but have the same weight. This allows for a static buoyancy condition regardless of the amount of product on board.

    I know they do this for fisheries where the catch is supposed to be delivered live. I think you could probably do it with ice, but I'm not sure how that would work.

    Is your catch usually offloaded frozen?
     
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  14. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    She's blowing black smoke so the engine is working hard, but the poles are down and lines appear to be out so they're fishing........

    From http://historicfishing.smugmug.com/

    sailingtroller.jpg
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    The "know it all", has at least forgotten much more than you ever will know with your dumb attitude.
     
    1 person likes this.
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