CNC Plans not Included

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by jorgepease, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    The deck mold looks complex but it's really only boxes on top of boxes.
    RNDR200.jpg

    This mold gets you every horizontal surface so far. It even gets you almost every cabinet area. Thanks to the roof being flat, I was able to offset the forward passageway without major redrawing.
    RNDR201.jpg

    Now my galley can honestly fit the fridge, dishwasher, stovetop and oven, plus cabinets and lots of counter space. It's finished with sofas on either side because underneath is the aft cabins and I don't want TV's or anything else up there. However I did leave a shelf between seat and windows for herbs or ... but I hate when people store junk in those places so will have to be disciplined about that. The tables don't always have to be in place, they are Hi-Low adjustable making Queen beds.

    Weight barely changed, I added some in the tables is all. I should still be on track for 9-10 tons.
    RNDR202.jpg
     
  2. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    so if you're disassembling the mold - you'll have to feather out all the joins again when you reassemble? How do you reassemble the tooling surface once its all been faired and painted into a single homogenous piece - by starting from scratch and taping every joint again? This is not the way to build a mold that you can reuse over and over... and if you don't plan to use it over and over - whats the point of doing it in the first place? None of this is making any sense Jorge - ask yourself why other boat builders don't do it this way and you might start to see the answers...
     
  3. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    In the boat yard scenario, the hull molds are the only problem because of beam clearance. The removable tooling surface is an idea I had for quite awhile, it's the only time consuming part to build but not that bad, IF I have to go that route.

    So if I go that route, here is how I would do it.
    The tooling surface is comprised of several (3-4) layers of thin ply 1/8 to 1/4. On the exterior side there are longitudinal ply strips situated between the battens glued to the outer layer of sheathing. This helps with keeping it all together (can even be glassed as well) but the three to 4 layers that make up the hull surface also have the seams staggered by about 12 inches when they are glued up. I would build the tooling surface in 3 - 2o foot sections making only 2 cross seams that have to be feathered each time you assemble. If I split the tooling face down the length, that seam (the keel) would also need to be filled but that is not a big deal either.

    The tooling face of each 20 foot section is only ever bogged once (and taped for each infusion) between the formica joints. So you have 2 cross seams and the keel seam which have to be caulked for each assembly. I would fill with caulk, scrape with a putty knife over tape to keep it a few thousands proud and keep a straight edge, remove masking tape and apply clear tape over caulk when dry, seam done. Any fairing is simply going to require a little bit of scuffing and a quick fill of that depression. I suspect that I can get that seam close enough that simply sanding it will be enough.

    These 20 foot glued up tooling sections will mostly maintain their shape out of the mold, there is a little springback and I have to store it on a rack to keep it from deforming over time but otherwise no big deal. The whole shebang might even fit into a 40 foot container, especially if the tooling faces are split down the center.

    Now if I do get this loaner piece of land I only have to section the molds so I can truck them off to storage. If I buy the land then the molds are one piece and left assembled period. The other two molds don't have removable tooling surfaces in any scenario.

    I really think I am going to end up with some farmland anyway. Most of the time a small portion of that land can be built on and I would just need a temp fabric structure, permit must be easier for one of those.

    Building with a mold will cost more UPFRONT. Let me just double it, let's say it costs $40K in materials. It's still worth it because the workflow is more linear, ie you set up once, breakdown once proceed to next phase. So many ways that make it faster, not going to list them.

    Plus, since I plan on building a fleet of cats, there should be no discussion on mold or no mold, the second shell I pull off this mold will be done in less than a month and if you look at the molds, almost every surface is integrated into that shell. I think the galley leg that sticks out is the only additional structure I have to add.

    Also I haven't drawn it and I don't know how it normally connects but I believe the catwalk should be infused at the same time as well. The exterior will need very little fairing the interior gets skinned with a single layer of glass which has been infused on a table, almost no fairing anywhere.
     
  4. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    If you're going to build a fleet of 60ft cats you better start hiring staff...

    And the proper way to do this is as briam eiland already said- you build your plugs in the fashion you describe above. Then you layup your fiberglass mold over that, and once pulled you have a mold you cam reuse many times (to build a fleet).

    This is a multi million dollar enterprise, if you dont realise that this is all a pipe dream...
     
  5. groper
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    groper Senior Member

  6. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Yeah if you do it the way in the link, which I agree, is the right way to do it, then you have a multimillion dollar deal because now you have heavy investment, plugs and molds to store and you need the 50000 sq foot building with a myriad of hoists and other equipment, full time employees etc ... but if you are doing that, then you are probably established and making money.

    My dad started his business in his garage. He lost money for the first couple of years and today he employs over 100 people, he has that 50,000 sq foot building, a fleet of 30 trucks and probably around 7, million dollar + machines. He now sits proud owner of his empire, in a vegetative state in his wheelchair, never reaping the rewards of his hard work.

    So I might not be able to eat the apple in one (1) bite but I can still eat the apple and I learned my lesson, I really don't want to get that big, when I say fleet I am talking 1-3 charter boats plus whatever I sell if anything. Six months per year, minimum, I want to sail around the world exploring and demonstrating my boat to others. I'm pretty sure I can talk my captains, who are close friends, to bring the other two boats along as well, will be much more impressive that way and I will just pay their food if they can't catch a fish lol!! Can't let them see this thread now!! :p
     
  7. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    I have not read much of this thread, but if the surfaces of this boat are developable, a mold sturdy enough for a limited run doesn't have to involve a plug or a fiberglass mold. If you go straight to a female mold made with Home Depot/Big Box materials, you can get a molded boat that requires no fairing to actually work and very little fairing to make it look good. Nothing like the struggle of finishing a male molded boat or a plug.

    It's just the opposite of making a male mold for a foam composite boat. You build a strongback or some surface to work from, you then affix frames, you then line the INSIDE of the frames with battens spaced 12" or so, and then you line the inside of all that with 1/8" x 4' x 8' smooth, white coated hardboard at $13 a sheet.

    Shop 47.75-in x 7.98-ft Smooth White Hardboard Wall Panel at Lowes.com https://www.lowes.com/pd/47-75-in-x-7-98-ft-Smooth-White-Hardboard-Wall-Panel/3015239

    The frames can be built cheaply, glued, screwed or air nailed. Liquid nails holds the tileboard to the battens, clamps or removable screws holding it until the adhesive sets. Corners can be filled with a filler or wax fillets, seams can be filled and finished or even just taped with clear tape. Wax it up, pva and it's ready.

    I think in one of Vaitses last books, he talks about it and said 10 hulls can be expected from something like that.

    Before I read Vaitses, I made one for a 16' jonboat, rolled gunnels and all. The hull came out very easy with no damage, leaving the mold in perfect shape. I'm sure I could have made 5-10-15 more with little problem.
     
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  8. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    THANK YOU so much for that post!!! My only test has been on a small part with formica type laminate and it came out perfect. As a career carpenter, my experience tells me it's completely possible, but till it's proven, it's not proven ))

    Update
    ... I am snowed under at work so I am going to miss my tour of Contender boats factory. I just got off phone with the GM and he explained to me briefly their assembly line and is going to take photos and explain more tomorrow. I will meet him in the keys tomorrow and have the perspective from a production builder. It doesn't matter that I will never pop that many boats, a lot of the same workflows and techniques can be used.

    I am really interested in the hoists and how they move the boats around, the scheduling, how they order and store materials etc...

    My goals
    GOALS.jpg
    The girl worries me more than the boat! :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  9. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Was just thinking, the advantage of having a symmetrical hull is I can infuse both hulls with the same mold and I could infuse all the components into pieces small enough to load on a truck which can navigate fairly narrow streets, as I am seeing in Croatia. It also simplifies moving the molds and popping the parts because I could use a couple of portable Gantry cranes to do that. Looking at the components, the tape joins seem like they would be fairly easy to do, especially with the portable hoists.

    If I take the time to leave the tape edges rebated, it would simplify fairing and allow me to at least prime. With a little thought, I might even use an accent color which lets me even apply the finish coat (less the tape areas). The bulkheads that don't fully traverse could also be glued in prior to trucking to the final assembly location.

    The other components would be done the same way, everything already primed or finish painted where possible. A lot of the fit out, including batteries, motors, etc. might also be done as well. You would have to leave the tape or glue areas unfinished but could plan some kind of trim or accent color to blend the join.

    I think then the options for locating a seaside location to assemble the boat would increase and with a couple of people and a couple of portable Gantry Cranes, the boat could be assembled and faired in about a week or lets just say a month. Give it another month to fair the joins and step the masts. That hugely reduces my location costs because then I can buy a farm in the boonies where nobody cares what I do and easily ship these parts to the boatyard which is going to charge me probably 4k per month but it's only 2 months.

    It's almost what you been saying Skip but instead of infusing flat panels you infuse actual major shapes. The rest of the molds are much simpler when broken down and it looks like many of those components can just be glued.

    In the pic below, the shelf mold would require the mirror mold (gray equals areas to leave out depending on the side). You could probably fit all these components on the same truck.
    Since you can tape and glue an entire boat with flat panels, surely this would be possible as well, what is the compromise in strength, is there one?
    RNDR204.jpg
     
  10. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Cat hulls can be made from flat panels- you already know that.

    There is no compromise om strength by making joins amywhere you want.

    Keep extending your thinking and youll end up with a flat panel, fold up panel boat type method which will speed up your build and save a ton of money.

    Wait till youve finished the first one and we will see how keen you are to build more- im willing to bet my left nut you will want to go sailing and forget boat building when #1 splashes...
     
  11. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    You would win that bet but I wouldn't be building anything in the middle of winter so I will be off sailing and I sure am not going to skipper the charter boats in the summer so might as well build while the captains put up with the tourists!!

    I doubt I will ever do the full flat panel grinding, bending, folding idea when the mold is so easy and cheap to build. Also just realized I goofed above, I don't need to mirror the shelf, I just need to make it double sided and flip the perpendicular legs, that is essentially a flat panel part, it could be done on the infusion table with a jig setup for the offshoots.
     
  12. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    You dont need to grind like you think... if you put the same thought into the process as youve put into your molding ideas youll find solutions.
    Building a mold for a flat panel design is a waste of time and money. Id approach it like your suggesting if the whole thing was compound curved, but its not, touve deliberately avoided compound shapes for simplicity and thus its perfectly suitable for flat panel methods same as rob dennys method etc you can include all features into the panels to just glue together.

    You only have to build 1 big flat mold - thats it.
     
  13. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    True I could find solutions such as making custom trim pieces that just cover tape joints but I am pretty convinced flat panel is still more work.
    1. You have to take into account that the time for each infusion
    2. You need to fabricate a jig to position the panels accurately
    3. Trim or fairing on the joints, however simple it can be made, still takes time.
    4. I can attach sub assemblies such as cabinets, sink, ovens, hatches etc in a comfortable position not crammed into a tight space on my knees or on my back lol.

    In less time than it takes you to fabricate the multiple jigs, I can fabricate a simple direct to female formica mold, infuse the whole thing in one shot, break it down only once, and I have minimum edges to fair which I can also simplify with a trim piece etc.

    So now I am breaking the molds down into rectangular sections that can be transported with a couple of donkeys if need be, and they can be plopped into the boat successively one right after the other. They might even be largely wired, plumbed and trimmed out if I think about it long enough lol...

    Here is the front cockpit and galley examples. Note how easy the molds are to make and how many flat panels you would have to position accurately and then tape and fair all those joints. I show the shaded mold and the render of what it gets you.

    As in other drawings, grey is cut out so not glassed. I do not show all the grey in the galley mold for all the cutouts.

    The Front Cockpit Mold:
    RNDR205.jpg
    Rendered Side:
    RNDR206.jpg
    The Galley Mold:
    RNDR207.jpg
    Rendered Side:
    RNDR208.jpg
    The Galley could need an extra cabinet that L's off
    RNDR209.jpg
    A look between the component molds, lots of storage
    RNDR210.jpg
     
  14. UpOnStands
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    UpOnStands Senior Member


  15. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Yeah, I read some of the blog, watched a couple of videos :)
     
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