CNC Plans not Included

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by jorgepease, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    Gotta get into kiteboarding, all my friends are into it and the designated launch spot is right in front of my apartment. What happens when you lose the board, do you have a leash? I got invited by Branson's business team to pitch them on an idea I submitted, they said come to the annual kiteboard get together. Don't know when I can get around to learning kiteboarding though lol.

    That's a cool story Jeff! My situation is a little less scary, I can lose all my money but I will still have an income from investments unless that goes down the drain too... so as long as I can get the boat built and don't incur any debt, I can live conservatively and be okay. I don't think anyone is going to hire me at my age so this is my last chance to do what I want.
     
    waikikin likes this.
  2. Geno41
    Joined: Jul 2017
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 3, Points: 3
    Location: Potomac, MD

    Geno41 Junior Member

    Do it Jorge! My build project will be my first and last realistically speaking, I'm only in my early 40s and can feel that my energy level is not the same even 5 or so years ago, but I will have 4-6 guys on the project with me on some days and all are home builders.
    Boat building for me is a hobby/dream and way to get around the world with my bro and cousins when time permits as I have my own small business to run. Most likely that the $$$ thrown at it will be at loss not all but still, if I could get the material cost back it would be great not counting on profit though roughly this puppy will run me around 300-400K finished plus land with my own dock and building shed with the small summer house. Would be great if I'll come up with some kind of launcher so I could get and retrieve it from water totally bypassing all of the marina fees. Man can dream.
     
    jorgepease likes this.
  3. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 2,293
    Likes: 92, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 871
    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Hi Jorge,

    Low debt level is a great advantage, I've only ever borrowed what can be payed off with ordinary wages & as it turned out a great fallback. I'd been self employed from 20 years old, what I discovered when I went to wages was I'd actually been a really tough boss on myself for a long time, now supervising others I really have to keep that in mind...
    Another thing I'd never do is bankrupt, as a young bloke starting in business in the mid 80s I saw all kinds of ratbags trying to & getting away with dodgy business- absolutely incenses my values.
    Definitely go for it but with eyes open & try to minimise overhead & investment in tooling- at most go for just hull shoe molds but even with this one off for this area on one boat is cheaper with flat panels able to be used nearly everywhere else though it would be tempting to take a mold after the first shoe but material wise puts you behind but saves the fairing stage.
    I work on the assumption that life is one chance so live it well.

    All the best from Jeff.
     
  4. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    I'm looking all over, just noticed that in Tonga the land is by lease which means I can pay a smaller amount upfront and have very low annual payments. I just need to research shipping of materials. I would have to send entire containers with everything I needed, power would be solar and genset, labor is very cheap ... I think I am going to have to make a spreadsheet of all the pros and cons of all these different locations including the aspect of charter possibilities and sales issues.

    Friday I have an informal appointment to go visit Contender boats and view their assembly line and process. A good friend of mine is a manager there and he has told me a little about how they do things. It will be good to see even though I won't be doing high production.

    Further reading on Tonga - Scams abound, a boat builders club somewhere in the world is seriously needed!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  5. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    Besides a plot of land next to the water with several tents, I would need to either hire a crane truck to launch the boat or build a railway or ramp so I can slide it in the water. I found some land on a river in Florida - 9 Acres, but it's pretty much in the boonies, might have power but no water.

    The river feeds into the Gulf of Mexico which looks to be 10 miles away with no bridges to open water. Land cost is 75K and it will cost another 50K to set up the tents and build the ramp ... so even before I get started I would need 125K. A big investment if I only ever build one boat.

    I also looked at options in boat yards. Found quite a few places that will rent uncovered space and one that rents covered space ranging from 1200 per month to double that. At first look it seems cheaper but I haven't included the space needed to store materials, the cnc shop or a place to store the molds once when I am done.

    Any way you look at it, building with molds on a boat this large requires a lot of upfront dollars. The land cost I can recoup one day so I don't see that as terrible.

    The problem with Florida however is that I really wanted a change of scenery and better access to Euro markets and the charter market of Croatia. I need to spend more time looking for commercial land in Croatia, at least I know I am looking at about another 200K besides what it costs to build the boat. However at that point I would have a pretty nice setup with very little overhead.

    That is why a boat builders club makes sense.

    EDIT!!!!!!
    Even in the middle of the boonies I have regulations breathing down my neck. Clearing trees within 75 feet of river is not permitted so that idea is a no go. It looks like I am going to have to rent a warehouse, build the molds in sections, infuse every other component ahead of time, then truck it all to a BoatYard and do the main infusions and assembly there.

    If I do it here in Miami, I can keep my job for a little longer while I get everything ordered and staged. Might be the smart way to go rather than going to Croatia or some other country I am not familiar with.

    RNDR194.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  6. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    Checking materials and system for molds. $2,100 for mold stations on one side and that leaves me 80 square 4'x5' pieces for decking or for other molds like the mast stations. I am looking at around $20k for entire boat mold, that counts a laminated finish and at least another $10K for trucking to and from the boatyard. I will figure that out when the time comes.

    I think I am going to pre-build the molds in the warehouse. Then I will infuse every component, bulkheads, masts, furniture etc and store them. Once I have it all ready including all other materials such as motors, solar etc... I will take molds to boatyard and quit my job ))

    I think I will go that route because the warehouse gives me full enclosure, 3phase power, loading docks and the boatyard will be a fiasco from what I can see.

    2 5x10 sheets of MDF per station make for easy mold build of both top and bottoms

    RNDR195.jpg RNDR196.jpg
     
  7. Geno41
    Joined: Jul 2017
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 3, Points: 3
    Location: Potomac, MD

    Geno41 Junior Member

    How many boats are you planning to build? Is it for your own charting company or for sale? I'd start with the cheapest way of building it, hope you know what your doing.
     
  8. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    I am pretty comfortable with the building part, the logistics of building a 60 foot catamaran on my budget are not that easy to work out, at least where I currently live. But the picture is starting to form in my head on how it could be done. One problem is there are only 2 travel lifts in the state wide enough to launch this and they limit how much work you can do in their yards. Not sure if they will allow a crane in to launch.

    The boatyard in the keys is much more chill, they can go up to 28'-4" and will let me build there no problem ... I am currently at 31' beam, I think I am going to have to bring it down to 28-4. It's not just for the launch, I have the top deck and the roof to hoist. For those I can hire a hoist but still pretty hairy given the limited space I will have.
     
  9. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    I just need to know these farmers!!
     
  10. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 2,467
    Likes: 120, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 693
    Location: australia

    groper Senior Member

    You dont need a crane to launch... just a truck and trailer, a suitable bit of land, then wait for the tide... easy.

    No way youll build all your molds for that much $. Not molds you can reuse more than once anyways... you havnt done your research well enough if you think you can pull it off that cheap. The surfaces have to be mirror finish or your back to fairing and painting the parts out of the molds. By the time you have all your molds looking like mirrors- you will have spent equal time and money on as you would on a finished boat- its that simple.
     
  11. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    Finding that suitable piece of land is the trick. I this which they might be willing to lease to me. Palm Valley Road and S. Roscoe Blvd, Ponte Vedra Beach, FL 32082 http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/20226514/Palm-Valley-Road-and-S-Roscoe-Blvd-Ponte-Vedra-Beach-FL/ ... I sent it off to a broker friend of mine, waiting to hear what his opinion is, never tried to lease anything like this before.

    On the other hand, the video inspired me to keep looking for something cheaper. I am still into the idea of doing this in Croatia, really want a change of scenery but I can't do this over the internet, going to take a trip down there talk to an attorney and some farmers and get a better feel for the place.

    Yeah it sounds cheap but I double checked my numbers. It's not going to be a mold which can be slung around for sure and I won't be polishing it, will be covered with laminate.

    Stations and base will have tabs CNC cut to quickly assemble and dismantle, think how long it takes to drop each station into place rather than measure, bump, measure again, bump again etc ... the battens are notched, interlocked and bolted, like I said, not a mold you would swing around with a crane but def strong enough to support infusing a hull.

    The Sheathing - Hulls have the only compound curves and those are minimal, I would laminate the hull sheathing so it keeps it's shape, the rest is one layer ... pretty simple. Transition areas need a little attention, in some cases it can be a detail which helps hide the transition in other cases a little fairing. Sheathing is dropped in and bolted from the outside to blind inserts, joins are caulked and taped, this will have to be cleaned up after each use.

    Everything has to be painted.

    With a good space, I can set up a decent woodworking shop and large infusion table and spit out the molds and all these components pretty darn fast. It's a bit of work upfront on the cnc side but worth it in my eyes. it's basically just an IKEA Mold.
     
  12. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    I know this isn't the finished design but it's probably not too far off... Pretty simple!
    RNDR197.jpg
    The rest of the boat is dead flat with only tapered lines. I would consider this very basic carpentry skills, especially with CNC. Where care needs to be taken is in laminating the sheathing to make sure it's not flattening out, that takes a bit more skill. Spring-Back on sheathing is not a problem, cinch it a bit and set sections in place bolting from the middle out while releasing cinch straps.

    I am still thinking this through but I have a feeling that the mold stations should be done in three pieces. What I hope to learn tomorrow at Contender Boats is a little bit about their hoist systems and assembly line. My mold would get in the way of a travel hoist (if by luck I can find a boatyard with such a monster hoist) and if I don't have a trolley lift, then a 3 segment mold station could come in handy because I could pop the mold, not the boat. A simple setup using counter seam clamps like these but with interconnecting tabs would hold station molds together. Dowels might also be in order ...
    RNDR198.jpg

    The battens are full length ply with puzzle joints and slightly notched. I would either make elongated holes to allow for easier alignment to an insert in mold station or clip system the same for the sheathing.
    RNDR199.jpg

    The final structure is rigidly locked together.

    This takes a lot of planning but the fabrication is efficient and when ready to use ... I could assemble a full mold using this system in about one week with two helpers. I am talking bout the base assembly, both hulls and bridgedeck fully sheathed and caulked and taped and that mold would be very strong, just not something you would want to be slinging around with a crane.

    it's not as good as a conventional mold but with care it should withstand an indefinite number of pulls and if anything is damaged it's pretty easy to replace.
     
  13. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 2,467
    Likes: 120, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 693
    Location: australia

    groper Senior Member

    ah man your just not getting it - assembling the mold isn't where the time goes - 90% of the time and effort goes into achieving the mirror finish! any boat builder or carpenter can strip plank a hull or a mold over some CNC stations. A 40ft catamaran hull only takes a week to strip plank by the same guy who takes 3 years to finish the entire boat.

    Achieving the mirror finish takes multiple passes of, bogging and sanding, priming and sanding, priming and sanding, before finally painting. Every join on every sheet of material you use requires filling and feathering. The difference in thickness between sheets is required to be only a couple of thou - otherwise the gloss finish in the part you pull will show it up like dogs balls.

    Before you go any further - I urge you to test your theory. Go ahead and make a mold for something and then infuse something in it. will it hold together when you try to move it around? what if you have to lift it with a gantry crane - does it all fall apart and crack etc? So now what - are you going to rent such a huge warehouse that you don't need to move all your molds around, everything is laid out like mulitiplast factory in france? common man - you don't have the budget for that kind of contruction methodology...

    Ive done this stuff before and my molds were usually destroyed removing the part because they were not proper molds designed to last more than 1 pull. The taping would get pulled out of the joins, the paint would peel off, you name it it happened. You need to build the molds very well - just like the boat itself - if you want it to last and that takes time and money which could be spent on building your boat. Remember you only have a few more good years left in you - would you rather be out sailing or grinding glass?

    My brother has decided he wants to go halves in a yacht with me - so were off to Croatia to buy a yacht :) Ill drop buy florida on our way back and say hi - I hope your not upto your knees in sawdust when I get there, id rather raft up to your boat in the bay and have a beer instead...
     
  14. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
    Posts: 4,788
    Likes: 157, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1903
    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    You need to build the plugs before the molds, and those can be expensive to get a proper finish. I suspect you are going to need at least twice or 3 times the money you speak of to get a proper boat of that size into production.

    Have you looked at the old BIG yard/facility at
    Reynolds Park Yacht Center
    on the St John's river south of Jacksonville
     

  15. jorgepease
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 46, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 75
    Location: Florida

    jorgepease Senior Member

    Brian, it's direct to female. Part geometry is extremely simple and I am using CNC. I have looked at all the ones in that area that stated they allow DIY work. Their prices are for painting the bottom or minor repairs and maint, building a boat is going to be a lot more expensive and they have lot's of rules such as I can't block the boat, re-block, hoist, use my own scaffolding and on and on which I fully understand so a boat yard is not my ideal choice.

    Skip, there is no fairing. all the sheathing is laminated with cabinet laminate. I have already tested this, it separates easy, it's too glossy to paint without scuffing, it's a glossier finish than melamine. Now if I wanted a mirror finish I could probably polish it up to that but I am not gelcoating, going to have to scuff it anyway.

    Not sure what you mean about different thickness, once the sheathing gets laid down it's bogged between joints and sanded. When the laminate goes down, we are talking about 30 thousands thick without deviations, I still leave a gap for vacuum proofing (say .125 in) which gets bogged and sanded and then taped. If there is anything to see it will be the tape line but who cares, I still have to scuff it up which will remove that line. I am going for a very high finish so we will spray some sanding primer and sand that out to a high grit, followed by paint and several coats of clear.

    I know the molds can't be moved, I stated that. You assemble, load, infuse, disassemble. I wish I could build the mold and leave it but you are right, I don't have that kind of budget. Having the molds dismantled will make it easier to store and truck, it's a bit more work, not terrible.

    I may end up in Croatia after all, some friends in Zadar said they will give me a house and land to build the boat but first they have to check road widths and speak to the officials to make sure it will be ok. They sent me a google link and the street view looks too narrow to me but I found a couple of other places which I sent back to them and they are going to check into it.

    You may beat me to the sandbar but I will be there soon enough drinking my Arnold Palmer :cool: when you get older, beer sticks to the gut!!
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.